515 Crew

[DARKBASS]

well the problem is that is how this country has worked for a long time....

You get more "right" sometime, and less "right" sometime.....

sometimes it seems fishy, but so far it has worked alright, only time will tell......

[joseph]

as i said, i'm not for a government-imposed ban. but i am definitely for more smoke-free places.

can i ask where you go that it bothers you so much? id guess des moines is about 90 percent non smoking already.

[DaVo]

The smoking-in-bars culture is dying quickly. Des Moines, being a sizable city that allows smoking indoors, is a rarity these days. It's not just the West Coast, the majority of large cities across the country have smoking bans in place. Once the bans are passed people realize how much nicer it is to go out, whether they smoke or not. It's has even been shown to increase revenue in bars and restaurants, to quote the wiki:

In the USA, smokers and hospitality businesses initially argued that businesses would suffer from smoking bans. Some restaurateurs argued that smoking bans would increase the rate of dine and dashes where patrons declare they are stepping outside to smoke, while their intent is to leave.[citation needed] Others have countered that even if this occurred it could decrease the leisure (non-eating) time spent in the restaurants, resulting in increased turn-over of tables, which could actually benefit total sales.[citation needed] The experiences of Delaware, New York, California, and Florida have shown that businesses are generally not hurt, and that many hospitality businesses actually show increased revenues.[citation needed] A 2006 U.S. Surgeon General review[76] of studies suggests that business may actually improve.[77] Thus, research generally indicates that business incomes are stable (or even improved) after smoking bans are enacted, and many customers appreciate the improved air quality.
In 2003 New York City amended its anti-smoking law to include all restaurants and bars, including those in private clubs, making it one of the toughest in the United States. The city's Department of Health found in a 2004 study that air pollution levels had decreased sixfold in bars and restaurants after the ban went into effect, and that New Yorkers had reported less second-hand smoke in the workplace. The study also found the city's restaurants and bars prospered despite the smoking ban, with increases in jobs, liquor licenses and business tax payments.[78] A 2006 study by the state of New York found similar results.[79] According to the 2004 Zagat Survey, which polled nearly 30,000 New York City restaurant patrons, respondents said by a margin of almost 6 to 1 that they eat out more often now because of the city's smoke-free policy.[80]
Other studies, however, have found far different results. Michael Pakko of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis has released several studies of the negative economic impact of smoking bans on restaurants and bars, including generally,[81] in Columbia, Missouri,[82] and at Delaware gambling facilities.[83][84]

I can understand how a smoking ban could hurt a gambling facility- people like to sit on their ass in one place for hours when they gamble, and going outside is a far greater hassle when you have stacks of chips to take care of. Still a minor issue.

If that was the case then the market will naturally cause bars and other businesses to ban smoking themselves. The fact is that there is a demand for them to allow and carter to smokers. There seems to be a much smaller demand from non-smokers.

Also, I'd like to point out that to step out to have a smoke in Florida, California or even on to a heated New York Sidewalk is a far cry from stepping out in to a 10 below February night. This could really effect the ablity for businesses to keep their doors open when you consider that bars and restuarants see a majority of their business in the coldest part of the year and suffer a real stump in the warmer months when people have more options for entertainment.

[DaVo]

Bars in Des Moines are already strictly regulated and are constantly on the lookout for sting operations, which are common. Police probably turned a blind eye in CA because they had better things to do.

Des Moines police don't seem to have that problem.

Anyway, from my time in Mpls and here in Denver (both which have smoking bans) I can tell you that what you witnessed in CA is rare.

I smoke in just about every bar, I went to in LA back in 99. I think the only place that really asked me to stop was the Whiskey A Go Go and Al's had this area where everyone was smoking and there was no one inside.

This Brings up another issue. The DMPD is under staffed as it is and tend to target easy pickings like bars. So this will be one more reason for them to harrass businesses? This is a good thing? Don't they have enough to do as it is?

[ilikehorses]

as i said, i'm not for a government-imposed ban. but i am definitely for more smoke-free places.

can i ask where you go that it bothers you so much? id guess des moines is about 90 percent non smoking already.

the only place i go regularly where the smoking actually bothers me is DMACC, because the fucking high school dropouts stand right outside the doors, even when mothers carrying babies come out of the building.

but that's not really a fair representation, because i'm so busy lately, i don't go out much anymore. especially nowhere regularly.

[DaVo]

ok im going to be a dick now.

if anyone didnt go to a show because it was smoky, they didnt really want to go in the first place and shouldnt be bitching. i sincerely doubt more than a handful didnt go to shows because of smoke and those that didnt either are fibbing or werent into the scene anyways.

.

Folks, it's a shame I even have to state this, but punk rock is supposed to be dangerous. This includes second hand smoke.

Yup and should be filled with drunks, weapons, misfits, fuck up, whores, sluts and drug addicts. Do you think straight edge came about just out of the blue? It was a reaction of the majority of the scene. Aka Drunks, smokers, sluts. addicts, etc... Even before I started smoking, the smell of smoke, booze and the unwashed was as much of the show experience as the bands.

[@nonymous]

Also, I'd like to point out that to step out to have a smoke in Florida, California or even on to a heated New York Sidewalk is a far cry from stepping out in to a 10 below February night. This could really effect the ablity for businesses to keep their doors open when you consider that bars and restuarants see a majority of their business in the coldest part of the year and suffer a real stump in the warmer months when people have more options for entertainment.

this conversation is getting really absurd. first, why would it affect businesses negatively if every establishment had a smoking ban? people just won't go out, period? of course they will. more people would go out.

second, who cares? i still don't understand how anyone can complain about such a banal issue but completely accept the other inequities of capitalism. protesting the smoking ban is a tragic, if hilarious, way of exercising your freedom of speech, given the amount of imminent threats to our freedom and the world as we know it that are out there. but god forbid we can't smoke at Rookies Sports Bar anymore!!

[@nonymous]

Yup and should be filled with drunks, weapons, misfits, fuck up, whores, sluts and drug addicts. Do you think straight edge came about just out of the blue? It was a reaction of the majority of the scene. Aka Drunks, smokers, sluts. addicts, etc... Even before I started smoking, the smell of smoke, booze and the unwashed was as much of the show experience as the bands.

something being a norm doesn't make it acceptable. not to mention, we're only talking about smoking here--not "sluts, drug addicts, drunks. . ." etc. those things are consensual and don't harm other people. this really isn't hard to understand.

[hairy]

so thats it...thousands upon thousand of years of smoking while drinking...and its up to you to say stop.

My business, your money....

Thats the problem with debating this with the left, no matter how many facts/history is put in front of them, it still comes down to them and them only...

"oh its smoky, bo ho, my pussy hurts...."

Reading what Ilikehorses wrote, was about the biggest joke ever....
Wow.

Mamma boy pussy shit, thats what I say.

[Thom]

Wait, because people would rather fucking eat in a smoke free place they are pussies?

I also prefer to go to venues without barricades permanently installed, but you know that dumb ass situation took care of itself too.

[robdigi]

this isn't a left vs right issue at all. most smoking bans are city-based and are voted on locally by the people involved in local politics. it's not big brother handing down an ultimatum.. laws such as these don't pass without public support.


btw smoking bans go back more than 500 years, they are not a new development.


you know how people always joke about des moines being a decade behind the rest of the country? this is a -prime- example.

[Hank Fist]

i'm not so sure the indians did a lot of heavy drinking and smoking. They didn't have alcohol. As you may know, Sir Walter Raliegh introduced tobacco to europe back in 1500s-1600s somewhere. Not a millenium upon millenium tradition.

[ilikehorses]

so thats it...thousands upon thousand of years of smoking while drinking...and its up to you to say stop.

HAHA! GOOD ARGUMENT.

Thats the problem with debating this with the left, no matter how many facts/history is put in front of them, it still comes down to them and them only...

"oh its smoky, bo ho, my pussy hurts...."

yeah, facts like lung cancer, emphysema, congestive heart disease, hypertension, heart failure, peripheral vascular disease, stroke, and so on and so on. facts like that. oh, my pussy, i mean, lungs, heart, arteries, veins, brain, etc.

Reading what Ilikehorses wrote, was about the biggest joke ever....
Wow.

the part where i said i don't agree with the ban and AM DOING WHAT YOU SAID AND STAYING HOME AND AWAY FROM SMOKY BARS AND PLACES THAT ALLOW SMOKING. youre right, that solution IS A JOKE.

Mamma boy pussy shit, thats what I say.

COOL INSULT. WE'VE ALL BEEN SCHOOLED.

[Bullet Tooth]

is anyone going to address the point tj brought up or what? you know, the whole reason this thread was started. or are we gonna keep flapping the same posts for another 10 pages?

[Dennis Haskins]

this is quite the pickle we have here gang. but before this gets too heated, perhaps this will help to answer some important questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO73-WlOHhM

[hairy]

I was drinking....Sorry bout the last post.

[joseph]

I was drinking....Sorry bout the last post.

drink more.