515 Crew

[robdigi]

The smoking-in-bars culture is dying quickly. Des Moines, being a sizable city that allows smoking indoors, is a rarity these days. It's not just the West Coast, the majority of large cities across the country have smoking bans in place. Once the bans are passed people realize how much nicer it is to go out, whether they smoke or not. It's has even been shown to increase revenue in bars and restaurants, to quote the wiki:

In the USA, smokers and hospitality businesses initially argued that businesses would suffer from smoking bans. Some restaurateurs argued that smoking bans would increase the rate of dine and dashes where patrons declare they are stepping outside to smoke, while their intent is to leave.[citation needed] Others have countered that even if this occurred it could decrease the leisure (non-eating) time spent in the restaurants, resulting in increased turn-over of tables, which could actually benefit total sales.[citation needed] The experiences of Delaware, New York, California, and Florida have shown that businesses are generally not hurt, and that many hospitality businesses actually show increased revenues.[citation needed] A 2006 U.S. Surgeon General review[76] of studies suggests that business may actually improve.[77] Thus, research generally indicates that business incomes are stable (or even improved) after smoking bans are enacted, and many customers appreciate the improved air quality.
In 2003 New York City amended its anti-smoking law to include all restaurants and bars, including those in private clubs, making it one of the toughest in the United States. The city's Department of Health found in a 2004 study that air pollution levels had decreased sixfold in bars and restaurants after the ban went into effect, and that New Yorkers had reported less second-hand smoke in the workplace. The study also found the city's restaurants and bars prospered despite the smoking ban, with increases in jobs, liquor licenses and business tax payments.[78] A 2006 study by the state of New York found similar results.[79] According to the 2004 Zagat Survey, which polled nearly 30,000 New York City restaurant patrons, respondents said by a margin of almost 6 to 1 that they eat out more often now because of the city's smoke-free policy.[80]
Other studies, however, have found far different results. Michael Pakko of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis has released several studies of the negative economic impact of smoking bans on restaurants and bars, including generally,[81] in Columbia, Missouri,[82] and at Delaware gambling facilities.[83][84]

I can understand how a smoking ban could hurt a gambling facility- people like to sit on their ass in one place for hours when they gamble, and going outside is a far greater hassle when you have stacks of chips to take care of. Still a minor issue.

[joseph]

The smoking-in-bars culture is dying quickly. Des Moines, being a sizable city that allows smoking indoors, is a rarity these days. It's not just the West Coast, the majority of large cities across the country have smoking bans in place. Once the bans are passed people realize how much nicer it is to go out, whether they smoke or not. It's has even been shown to increase revenue in bars and restaurants, to quote the wiki:

In the USA, smokers and hospitality businesses initially argued that businesses would suffer from smoking bans. Some restaurateurs argued that smoking bans would increase the rate of dine and dashes where patrons declare they are stepping outside to smoke, while their intent is to leave.[citation needed] Others have countered that even if this occurred it could decrease the leisure (non-eating) time spent in the restaurants, resulting in increased turn-over of tables, which could actually benefit total sales.[citation needed] The experiences of Delaware, New York, California, and Florida have shown that businesses are generally not hurt, and that many hospitality businesses actually show increased revenues.[citation needed] A 2006 U.S. Surgeon General review[76] of studies suggests that business may actually improve.[77] Thus, research generally indicates that business incomes are stable (or even improved) after smoking bans are enacted, and many customers appreciate the improved air quality.
In 2003 New York City amended its anti-smoking law to include all restaurants and bars, including those in private clubs, making it one of the toughest in the United States. The city's Department of Health found in a 2004 study that air pollution levels had decreased sixfold in bars and restaurants after the ban went into effect, and that New Yorkers had reported less second-hand smoke in the workplace. The study also found the city's restaurants and bars prospered despite the smoking ban, with increases in jobs, liquor licenses and business tax payments.[78] A 2006 study by the state of New York found similar results.[79] According to the 2004 Zagat Survey, which polled nearly 30,000 New York City restaurant patrons, respondents said by a margin of almost 6 to 1 that they eat out more often now because of the city's smoke-free policy.[80]
Other studies, however, have found far different results. Michael Pakko of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis has released several studies of the negative economic impact of smoking bans on restaurants and bars, including generally,[81] in Columbia, Missouri,[82] and at Delaware gambling facilities.[83][84]

I can understand how a smoking ban could hurt a gambling facility- people like to sit on their ass in one place for hours when they gamble, and going outside is a far greater hassle when you have stacks of chips to take care of. Still a minor issue.

i think the better argument/discussion is why should the govt decide and not the private business owner.

[hairy]

I still dont get the lefts point of view.

Smoking is allowed in GT. If a non-smoker does not want the second hand smoke, he or she can go somewhere else.

If they were to pass the no smoking law, smokers could not go anywhere else.

Why is that so hard for people to get.

How long have people been smoking in bars/pubs?

Forever?.....but now its got to stop.

All because some one in local goverment wants to put down on the resume that they made a difference.

[ilikehorses]

I still dont get the lefts point of view.

Smoking is allowed in GT. If a non-smoker does not want the second hand smoke, he or she can go somewhere else.

If they were to pass the no smoking law, smokers could not go anywhere else.

Why is that so hard for people to get.

How long have people been smoking in bars/pubs?

Forever?.....but now its got to stop.

All because some one in local goverment wants to put down on the resume that they made a difference.

no, smokers can still go places. they can smoke outside.

[hairy]

Wow, freedom from choice..
you get it.

[ilikehorses]

Wow, freedom from choice..
you get it.

again, freedom of choice to harm others?

[hairy]

but the only people harmed would be the ones that made that choice....Being that we are talking about a bar that allows smoking...
and if you want to play that game...There are other places non-smokers can go also....like outside.

[ilikehorses]

so the people who are harming no one should not have the right to be in public spaces? i used to smoke way back when, i know how hard it is to be a smoker. not hard at all. it isn't a big deal to go outside to smoke. it's not a social injustice. in fact, it's being polite and responsible.

[Big Fat Retard]

so the people who are harming no one should not have the right to be in public spaces? i used to smoke way back when, i know how hard it is to be a smoker. not hard at all. it isn't a big deal to go outside to smoke. it's not a social injustice. in fact, it's being polite and responsible.

If you don't like second hand smoke don't go to places that allow smoking. A bar is a privately owned business and the smoking policy should be determined by the owner, not some commies in suits and ties.

I lived out in California a few years back. They have a smoking ban, yet most of the bars I went to still allowed smoking. Some of them were more discreet about it than others and would keep the ashtrays under the counter or have you use an empty can. I saw the cops come into bars that still allowed smoking and they didn't do a thing about it. How will it be enforced in Iowa? is there going to be a Smoking Gestapo going around checking bars? Are people going to call the snitchline?

[robdigi]

Bars in Des Moines are already strictly regulated and are constantly on the lookout for sting operations, which are common. Police probably turned a blind eye in CA because they had better things to do.

Des Moines police don't seem to have that problem.

Anyway, from my time in Mpls and here in Denver (both which have smoking bans) I can tell you that what you witnessed in CA is rare.

[El Rhino]

Are you sure you're not talking about patios? I've seen a few bars in California that have a room that could technically be considered a patio that allowed smoking, but were really nothing more than a seperate room with some screen windows.

[Tom]

ed...just step outside if the smoke is too much, seriously. i've seen in some of your past posts (in context) that things in this town are too tight as it is too complain about such trivial things.

jeezus dude...loosen your shoe strings and get on with it.

oh wait..you wear "slip on" vans...the scenester's "get out of jail free" card.

headache.

[ilikehorses]

ed...just step outside if the smoke is too much, seriously. i've seen in some of your past posts (in context) that things in this town are too tight as it is too complain about such trivial things.

jeezus dude...loosen your shoe strings and get on with it.

oh wait..you wear "slip on" vans...the scenester's "get out of jail free" card.

headache.

that's what i've been doing. and i've been doing what others have suggested: not going places that allow smoking. my point is that i shouldn't have to. i should be able to go see a band without having to worry about breathing in smoke.
i think patios are a good middle ground, yet the smokers cry and cry and cry when it comes to such a suggestion. perhaps i'm not the one being unruly, perhaps the smokers of this board should think about others' health and rights a bit.

also, i do wear slip-ons. theyre sweet. but theyre not vans. ...i'm not really sure what brand they are.

[Big Fat Retard]

Are you sure you're not talking about patios? I've seen a few bars in California that have a room that could technically be considered a patio that allowed smoking, but were really nothing more than a seperate room with some screen windows.

Nope. I'm talking about sitting down at the bar, ordering a beer and lighting up a smoke. Knowing Iowa, they probably would actually have Smoking Nazis running around snitching on bar owners that allow smoking.

Ilikehorses.....sorry but the bar owners rights as a private business owner should supercede the rights of his customers. Your demanding that people not smoke in a private business is the same as your walking into someone's house and telling them what to do. A bar owner has the right to kick people who whine about smoking out on the street if they like. btw, I don't smoke....cigarettes.

[ilikehorses]

Ilikehorses.....sorry but the bar owners rights as a private business owner should supercede the rights of his customers. Your demanding that people not smoke in a private business is the same as your walking into someone's house and telling them what to do. A bar owner has the right to kick people who whine about smoking out on the street if they like. btw, I don't smoke....cigarettes.

i'm pretty sure i've never once said i support any government-imposed smoking ban in private businesses. i'm talking in general about how dumb and fucked up smoking is and smokers are.

[BellowingBeast]

i know some cities are banning smoking outside all together, leaving your car and house as one of few places you can smoke. thats my concern, i really don't want to have to constantly go to my car to smoke or my house.

[joseph]

so the people who are harming no one should not have the right to be in public spaces?

a bar is not a public place. its a private establishment. and any private business has the right to refuse patrons...

i'm talking in general about how dumb and fucked up smoking is and smokers are.

and nonsmokers are cool

i should be able to go see a band without having to worry about breathing in smoke.

where are you going in dsm that allows smoking at shows?

[ilikehorses]

so the people who are harming no one should not have the right to be in public spaces?

a bar is not a public place. its a private establishment. and any private business has the right to refuse patrons...

i'm not just talking about bars.

i'm talking in general about how dumb and fucked up smoking is and smokers are.

and nonsmokers are cool

at least nonsmokers aren't killing people with their carcinogens (well, to some extent, some are depending on other things they endorse).

i should be able to go see a band without having to worry about breathing in smoke.

where are you going in dsm that allows smoking at shows?

well, back a few years ago, i skipped a lot of good shows because i didn't want to deal with the smoke at Hairy Marys. for people so concerned with how well the scene is going, all the smokers on here don't seem to care that smoky bars might keep people from going to shows.
but youre right, right now, most of the shows i go to are smoke free. and it is fucking AWESOME.

[joseph]

so the people who are harming no one should not have the right to be in public spaces?

a bar is not a public place. its a private establishment. and any private business has the right to refuse patrons...

i'm not just talking about bars.

then what are you talking about?
thats what this thread was started about. it sounds more like you want cigarettes to be illegal, good luck with that.

[Bullet Tooth]

ok im going to be a dick now.

if anyone didnt go to a show because it was smoky, they didnt really want to go in the first place and shouldnt be bitching. i sincerely doubt more than a handful didnt go to shows because of smoke and those that didnt either are fibbing or werent into the scene anyways.

sorry ed but thats a lousy excuse. ive seen you in hairy marys drinking plenty of times. you ok to drink but not see a show?

yeaaaaaah. no.


biggest point in the thread: a bar is a private establishment. the argument is really moot. the owner should have the right in his own place to set his own rules. anyone that doesnt like the rules doesnt have to go. and im saying this on both sides, smoking and non. i know plenty that wont go to the lift and i know plenty that wont go to gts. owners should set their own standards and then suffer/prosper accordingly.

[Hank Fist]

Cigarettes make you feel bad.

[ilikehorses]

ok im going to be a dick now.

if anyone didnt go to a show because it was smoky, they didnt really want to go in the first place and shouldnt be bitching. i sincerely doubt more than a handful didnt go to shows because of smoke and those that didnt either are fibbing or werent into the scene anyways.

sorry ed but thats a lousy excuse. ive seen you in hairy marys drinking plenty of times. you ok to drink but not see a show?

yeaaaaaah. no.


biggest point in the thread: a bar is a private establishment. the argument is really moot. the owner should have the right in his own place to set his own rules. anyone that doesnt like the rules doesnt have to go. and im saying this on both sides, smoking and non. i know plenty that wont go to the lift and i know plenty that wont go to gts. owners should set their own standards and then suffer/prosper accordingly.

actually, the last year (or more) that Marys was open, i think i went, maybe, three times. because i got super sick of the smoke. that is the absolute honest reason. i felt bad that i wasn't seeing the shows i would like to see, but i didn't like the cigarette smoke.

for me, it's the smokers decided their rights trump anyone else's. that's my biggest concern. when it's talk about taking away smoking in these places, theyre up in arms, because suddenly "it's my right, it's my right," not thinking about the other people who have to deal with it.

[El Rhino]

ok im going to be a dick now.

if anyone didnt go to a show because it was smoky, they didnt really want to go in the first place and shouldnt be bitching. i sincerely doubt more than a handful didnt go to shows because of smoke and those that didnt either are fibbing or werent into the scene anyways.

.

Folks, it's a shame I even have to state this, but punk rock is supposed to be dangerous. This includes second hand smoke.

[joseph]

ok im going to be a dick now.

if anyone didnt go to a show because it was smoky, they didnt really want to go in the first place and shouldnt be bitching.
sorry ed but thats a lousy excuse.

thank you.

actually, the last year (or more) that Marys was open, i think i went, maybe, three times. because i got super sick of the smoke. that is the absolute honest reason.

marys is closed. you shouldnt reference it. its a moot point.

[ilikehorses]

ok im going to be a dick now.

if anyone didnt go to a show because it was smoky, they didnt really want to go in the first place and shouldnt be bitching.
sorry ed but thats a lousy excuse.

thank you.

just like it's a lousy excuse to say that smokers wouldn't go to bars or shows or anywhere if they couldn't smoke there. just like it's a lousy excuse to claim your rights allow you to sicken and kill others selfishly. i get it, you all like to smoke. i get that you think this entitles you to smoke anywhere you please. and i get that you ignore all the people who don't smoke. fact is, if more places, businesses, public places were smoke-free, it's be better for our overall health, it'd be better for business, it'd be better for EVERYONE.

actually, the last year (or more) that Marys was open, i think i went, maybe, three times. because i got super sick of the smoke. that is the absolute honest reason.

marys is closed. you shouldnt reference it. its a moot point.

why shouldn't i reference it? i don't get it. it's my personal experience; i wouldn't go to this bar to see bands i really liked because i didn't want to deal with all the smoke.

[DARKBASS]

For me it is simple as this......albiet....I am a nonsmoker.....

I enjoy hanging out in a club without having my hair/clothes smell like smoke the next day.....

Also, why should your right to smoke inpede on others right to enjoy the air?

and I do not know why it would be so hard to go outside, I have seen many places with heaters outside to be used for smokers comfort when it is cold(a fine idea), and you can be outside and look cool while you are smoking....

The only thing I got for smokers.....is that most non smoking bars I have been in smell like a mix of extremely strong feminine perfumes/sprays/whateverthefuks, B.O., and booze.....and depending on how classy the joint(sometimes popcorn shrimp and ass)...

um, which is better.....

I am not sure....

that being said, I have survived some of the smokiest places on the face of the earth playing concerts, and I love the blues on grand.....that used to be the smokiest place known to man and beast alike....

In my opinion Hairy Mary's(Love it, hate it, or otherwise) will never be a moot point, that place had a lot of history.......

[teedotjaydot]

i think with all the talk of how we feel, as patrons, we're missing the biggest point that this thread was started for.

forget smokers/nonsmokers, forget the health issues/workers rights/inconveniencing of one crowd or another.

Should hairy, as a businessman, have the right to run his business the way he wants, taken away?

no.

regardless of all the other noise being stirred up in this thread, someone come back at me and tell me I'm wrong. and explain yourself.

[Hank Fist]

legalize pot.

[joseph]

thank you.

just like it's a lousy excuse to say that smokers wouldn't go to bars or shows or anywhere if they couldn't smoke there. just like it's a lousy excuse to claim your rights allow you to sicken and kill others selfishly. i get it, you all like to smoke. i get that you think this entitles you to smoke anywhere you please. and i get that you ignore all the people who don't smoke. fact is, if more places, businesses, public places were smoke-free, it's be better for our overall health, it'd be better for business, it'd be better for EVERYONE.

i smoke. i go to shows and businesses regardless of whether i can smoke or not. what entitles me to smoke is im of age, theyre legal, i pay for them. im not ignoring you. i think itd be better for everyone if people could hang out instead of pleading for the govt to save them. i dont really care either way if a smoking ban is put in effect. theres lots of things i cant do in public anyway.

actually, the last year (or more) that Marys was open, i think i went, maybe, three times. because i got super sick of the smoke. that is the absolute honest reason.

marys is closed. you shouldnt reference it. its a moot point.[/quote]

why shouldn't i reference it? i don't get it. it's my personal experience; i wouldn't go to this bar to see bands i really liked because i didn't want to deal with all the smoke.

its closed. you win.

[ilikehorses]

thank you.

just like it's a lousy excuse to say that smokers wouldn't go to bars or shows or anywhere if they couldn't smoke there. just like it's a lousy excuse to claim your rights allow you to sicken and kill others selfishly. i get it, you all like to smoke. i get that you think this entitles you to smoke anywhere you please. and i get that you ignore all the people who don't smoke. fact is, if more places, businesses, public places were smoke-free, it's be better for our overall health, it'd be better for business, it'd be better for EVERYONE.

i smoke. i go to shows and businesses regardless of whether i can smoke or not. what entitles me to smoke is im of age, theyre legal, i pay for them. im not ignoring you. i think itd be better for everyone if people could hang out instead of pleading for the govt to save them. i dont really care either way if a smoking ban is put in effect. theres lots of things i cant do in public anyway.

as i said, i'm not for a government-imposed ban. but i am definitely for more smoke-free places.

actually, the last year (or more) that Marys was open, i think i went, maybe, three times. because i got super sick of the smoke. that is the absolute honest reason.

marys is closed. you shouldnt reference it. its a moot point.

why shouldn't i reference it? i don't get it. it's my personal experience; i wouldn't go to this bar to see bands i really liked because i didn't want to deal with all the smoke.

its closed. you win.[/quote]

i win? i didn't want it to close. i enjoyed hairy marys. i just didn't like the huge amount of smoke in it.