515 Crew

xbenx · Post by **xbenx** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:29 am

thank you.

Bullet Tooth · Post by **Bullet Tooth** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:45 am

explain.

Varg · Post by **Varg** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:51 am

.....is that it?

Maybe you should ride this to Omaha, the hxc capital, and take it up with some of the real hardcore bands. I'm sure you would've had some very interesting conversations with System Failure-- They thought "God is not dead"! ThEy wEre Craz-e d00d.

XStraight edgeX kids are commonly associated with what genre?
XStraight edgeX kids are commonly associated with what religion?
Make all the connections, tie up the loose ends, and make assumptions, like you normally would, and it will lead you to the following conclusion: there's a lot of Christian hxc kids and a lot of Christians have Republican/Conservative beliefs. Souless liberals, such as yourself, set on abolishing Christianity usually listen to Madonna and rap. Knowing this much, I'm surprised you're not calling "Jesusland" hardcore kids Evangelical extremists bent on world domination.

TooManyHumyns · Post by **TooManyHumyns** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:22 pm

yeah i dont think he has an arguement...i think people can write about whatever they want to regardless of the style of music...what are they supposed to do, fake their thoughts so they fit with the others in the genre...duh

drumgurrl · Post by **drumgurrl** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:02 pm

Please, if you're going to use labels, use them correctly.

lib?er?al

1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. (often cap.) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.
12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.
13. of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.

con?serv?a?tive

1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
4. (often cap.) of or pertaining to the Conservative party.
5. (cap.) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Conservative Jews or Conservative Judaism.
6. having the power or tendency to conserve; preservative.
7. Math.(of a vector or vector function) having curl equal to zero; irrotational; lamellar.

As you can see, supporting the war on the basis of liberating the people of Iraq is actually a liberal ideal... not a conservative one.

Also, the two most prominent free market (capitalist) economists identify themselves as liberals. One of them was honored by Bush in 2002. See it here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 509-1.html

I've also posted Hayek's article before, but here it is again. It's called Why I Am Not a Conservative (even though most people think he is one).
http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/cons.htm

Post by **Greg Protocol** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:08 pm

Varg wrote:Souless liberals, such as yourself, set on abolishing Christianity usually listen to Madonna and rap.

Shit I thought we listened to Phish and The Grateful Dead.

Post by **Greg Protocol** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:10 pm

Varg wrote:Souless liberals, such as yourself, set on abolishing Christianity usually listen to Madonna and rap. Knowing this much, I'm surprised you're not calling "Jesusland" hardcore kids Evangelical extremists bent on world domination.

Take a moment to appreciate the juxtaposition of these two statements....

Tal Bachman · Post by **Tal Bachman** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:30 pm

Omaha is the hardcore capitol? I thought it was the whiney pussy-ass capitol.

xbenjyx · Post by **xbenjyx** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:48 pm

I think most of the people posting in this thread so far have terribly twisted logic. Oh well.

jnice · Post by **jnice** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:14 am

I'm not so sure that conservative views can't exist in hardcore music. I just think it's tricky to throw political lyrics into ANY type of music! I'll elaborate in the other thread with a similar subject.

jnice · Post by **jnice** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:19 am

drumgurrl wrote: As you can see, supporting the war on the basis of liberating the people of Iraq is actually a liberal ideal... not a conservative one.

Drumgurrl, you'd be right except that you and I both know that was NOT the reason conservatives started the war with Iraq!

drumgurrl · Post by **drumgurrl** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:29 am

jnice wrote:Drumgurrl, you'd be right except that you and I both know that was NOT the reason conservatives started the war with Iraq!

Why yes, you are right. In order for it to make sense, you must first accept a false premise.

But you're not supposed to catch on to that.

Varg · Post by **Varg** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:18 am

drumgurrl wrote:Please, if you're going to use labels, use them correctly.

EXCUSE ME?

As you can see, supporting the war on the basis of liberating the people of Iraq is actually a liberal ideal... not a conservative one.

bahahhaha, who are you trying to kid? If you losers had your way we would've never even been over there and now you're trying to take credit for liberating the Iraqi people?! Next you're gonna say it was actually Carter who ended the Cold War...

xbenx · Post by **xbenx** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:06 am

Varg wrote: XStraight edgeX kids are commonly associated with what religion?

last time i checked most edge kids i know are NOT associated with religion. and dont tell me that you "know" straight edge is associated with ANY religion.

that being said, it is my beliefe that hardcore was started around the ideas that people needed a different outlet for themselves outside the generally right-wing culture. therefore, hardcore has been traditionally a place for liberal views on just about anything.

so my original post was broad? well, i was hoping to get people thinking...i was hoping to see people post their interpertations of what i had originally posted...it didnt work, which was a flaw on my part.

also, Varg, are you aware of the racism associated with the name you post under?

if so, that can speak volumes about you.

Varg · Post by **Varg** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:39 am

xbenx wrote: last time i checked most edge kids i know are NOT associated with religion. and dont tell me that you "know" straight edge is associated with ANY religion.

that being said, it is my beliefe that hardcore was started around the ideas that people needed a different outlet for themselves outside the generally right-wing culture. therefore, hardcore has been traditionally a place for liberal views on just about anything.

so my original post was broad? well, i was hoping to get people thinking...i was hoping to see people post their interpertations of what i had originally posted...it didnt work, which was a flaw on my part.

"Christ is not a fashion, fleeting away." ---Norma Jean: Memphis Will Be Laid to Waste
"Staring at the world through the whole you put in my
hand. That was caused by a blade you gently inserted.
I did this for you, not for your religon, not for your
patterns. I did this for you. I did this for a man
like
you. Stop searching and find Me. I am stabbed by grace
and slinging blood." ----Norma Jean: The Shotgun Message

"God is, not dead. Kill the, darkness."---System Failure

"The lesser lights of heaven are burning for their son, praying for the presence, that birthed them into one
---Zao

Don't
release your hand from me. I must surrender, must lay it down. What's to
gain in my selfishness? What will I promote, and what will be pushed back?
My hope must rise, strength come forward. Linking my hand in yours. Let your
chains uphold me. I won't break the bond. No more will I remain the same. My
God has ever loved himself in me. I am convinced. I must stay.---Zao: Resistance

"We are a creation, the old has gone, the new has come. Reconcild us to
Himself, through Christ Jeasus. We will be free, forever knowing what will
become... of us. Thank you for the cross.---Zao: In Loving Kindness

drumgurrl · Post by **drumgurrl** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:57 am

Varg wrote:bahahhaha, who are you trying to kid? If you losers had your way we would've never even been over there and now you're trying to take credit for liberating the Iraqi people?! Next you're gonna say it was actually Carter who ended the Cold War...

First off, you're assuming I'm a leftist, which I am not. Secondly, I am referring to the actual definition of the term liberal (as stated in my preveious post). Of course no one who claims to be a liberal is supporting the war. That was my point... people use labels without knowing what they mean.

A traditional conservative viewpoint regarding foreign policy is noninterventionist, unless it's for security reasons. So to support the war because you think it will strenthen our security is a conservative viewpoint. To want any sort of "progression" for the Iraqi people is a liberal viewpoint, because by definition, liberals want progression. So you, my dear, are supporting a liberal position. That's what I'm saying.

None of this is my opinion. I'm merely using Webster. Feel free to check this board for statements I've made about the war, and you'll find very little. Although I am skeptical (but not hateful) of all politicians regardless of their political affiliation, I do not claim to know much about a war I'm not fighting. It's called respect.

jnice · Post by **jnice** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:59 am

drumgurrl wrote:As you can see, supporting the war on the basis of liberating the people of Iraq is actually a liberal ideal... not a conservative one.

Varg wrote: bahahhaha, who are you trying to kid? If you losers had your way we would've never even been over there and now you're trying to take credit for liberating the Iraqi people?! Next you're gonna say it was actually Carter who ended the Cold War...

Actually, didn't BOTH the Democrats and Republicans in Congress vote to "give" the authority to George Bush for military action against Iraq? And wasn't it John Kerry that continued to support our actions against Iraq, except for the detail of having more international support?

You see, the "liberation" (I use quotation marks because I'm not convinced that things have generally improved there) was a bipartisan effort. I realize that you want your "team" to get all the credit, but that wouldn't be accurate. Both Bush and Kerry supported, and still support, attacking a country that never posed a threat to our national security. This also happens to be one of the main reasons I voted third-party for a candidate willing to speak against the Iraq War.

drumgurrl · Post by **drumgurrl** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:06 am

Libertarians rule!

And yes, you're right with what you're saying. Dems and Repubs alike supported this war. But there are liberal Repubs, conservative Dems, and everything in between. George Bush often talks about progress, which I'm not knocking him for. All I'm saying is that he's a liberal for doing so. And remember the "conservative" group Progress for America?

Of course, that's not to say he's liberal in all his viewpoints!!! He is mostly conservative.

ilikehorses · Post by **ilikehorses** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:33 am

wow, varg, you pointed out three bands that are christians. that definitely means every straightedge hardcore kid is christian. .. because basing an idea about thousands of people off the actions of about fifteen is sweet. also, youre a douche.

tama · Post by **tama** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:30 pm

Also, those three christian bands all suck. All good music is inspired by the dark lord and evil one. Hail Satan. Who wants to go church burning with me?

don peyote de la gancha · Post by **don peyote de la gancha** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:41 pm

Waving your flag a blind patriot, can no longer see because your eyes are shut
Love it or leave it is your sentiment, instead of working for improvement
But I want to live free and won't settle for this mediocrity
Waving your flag, we're number one, society's got you under their thumb
Too ignorant to see through their subtle attack, to make us content but we must fight back
You don't love your country, you just love yourself
Because you sit complacent, like everyone else
If you fight for freedom, then do what's right
Put down that flag, protest and come join the fight
Live Free - Youth of Today
You shithead slimy make it alls
With dead meat dripping as you walk
Don't talk of justice or respect
You shit soaked armchair moralist...
What right is yours that others live
Are yours to smash and kill and bind?
It's your security that they bleed for
Your definitions that they die for
You stack your dead heroes with no more thought
Than some accountant at their work
Don't Tell Me You Care - Crass

You say, 'God loves you. Come and buy the Good News'
Then you buy the president and swimming pools
If Jesus don't save 'til we're lining your pockets
God must be dead if you're alive
Circus-tent con-men and Southern belle bunnies
Milk your emotions then they steal your money
It's the new dark ages with the fascists toting bibles
Cheap nostalgia for the Salem Witch Trials
Stodgy ayatollahs in their dobble-knit ties
Burn lots of books so they can feed you their lies
Masturbating with a flag and a bible
God must be dead if you're alive
You don't want abortions, you want battered children
You want to ban the pill as if that solves the problem
Now you wanna force us to pray in school
God must be dead if you're such a fool
You're planning for a war with or without Iran
Building a police state with the Ku Klux Klan
Pissed at your neighbour? Don't bother to nag
Pick up the phone and turn in a fag
Moral Majority - Dead Kennedys

drumgurrl · Post by **drumgurrl** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:06 pm

There is an alternative to liberal-bashing and Jesus-bashing. You'll find no hatred here:

http://www.sojo.net/

Again, I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Faith is a personal matter to me and I don't go bragging about it. I'm posting this for people to use as a resource. It's basically evangelical Christianity from a progressive viewpoint.

xbenx · Post by **xbenx** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:17 pm

Varg wrote:
xbenx wrote: last time i checked most edge kids i know are NOT associated with religion. and dont tell me that you "know" straight edge is associated with ANY religion.

that being said, it is my beliefe that hardcore was started around the ideas that people needed a different outlet for themselves outside the generally right-wing culture. therefore, hardcore has been traditionally a place for liberal views on just about anything.

so my original post was broad? well, i was hoping to get people thinking...i was hoping to see people post their interpertations of what i had originally posted...it didnt work, which was a flaw on my part.
"Christ is not a fashion, fleeting away." ---Norma Jean: Memphis Will Be Laid to Waste
"Staring at the world through the whole you put in my
hand. That was caused by a blade you gently inserted.
I did this for you, not for your religon, not for your
patterns. I did this for you. I did this for a man
like
you. Stop searching and find Me. I am stabbed by grace
and slinging blood." ----Norma Jean: The Shotgun Message

"God is, not dead. Kill the, darkness."---System Failure

"The lesser lights of heaven are burning for their son, praying for the presence, that birthed them into one
---Zao

Don't
release your hand from me. I must surrender, must lay it down. What's to
gain in my selfishness? What will I promote, and what will be pushed back?
My hope must rise, strength come forward. Linking my hand in yours. Let your
chains uphold me. I won't break the bond. No more will I remain the same. My
God has ever loved himself in me. I am convinced. I must stay.---Zao: Resistance

"We are a creation, the old has gone, the new has come. Reconcild us to
Himself, through Christ Jeasus. We will be free, forever knowing what will
become... of us. Thank you for the cross.---Zao: In Loving Kindness

ilikehorses wrote: wow, varg, you pointed out three bands that are christians. that definitely means every straightedge hardcore kid is christian. .. because basing an idea about thousands of people off the actions of about fifteen is sweet. also, youre a douche.

exactly. quoting 3 crappy bands [christian or not] does not prove ANYTHING. why dont you just go the extra mile and quote the bible?

Varg · Post by **Varg** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:17 pm

jnice wrote:

Actually, didn't BOTH the Democrats and Republicans in Congress vote to "give" the authority to George Bush for military action against Iraq? And wasn't it John Kerry that continued to support our actions against Iraq, except for the detail of having more international support?

Both Bush and Kerry supported, and still support, attacking a country that never posed a threat to our national security.

The ONLY reason kerry voted for this war was because he saw what a success the first Gulf War was, after he didn't vote for that one (or was he even there?), and he certainly didn't want that to happen agian. He's been back-pedaling that move ever since. kerry's voting record, OR RATHER LACK THERE OF, is only a positive to you when he voted for the war so you can claim he supported it...which simultaneously, you find the war to be quite a negative. Always hawks in the off-season...

ilikehorses wrote:wow, varg, you pointed out three bands that are christians. that definitely means every straightedge hardcore kid is christian. .. because basing an idea about thousands of people off the actions of about fifteen is sweet. also, youre a douche.

Yeah, three, two of which are among the more well known hxc bands. There's also Overcome, No Innocent Vitctim, and Figure Four. No one said "EVERY xstraightedgex kid"...I even sarcasticly left the "it's a generalization; but you'll assume that means everyone" part up to you, and you came through as sure as the sun sets.

"p.s." Norma Jean crushes all of you.

Varg · Post by **Varg** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:19 pm

xbenx wrote:
good job on doing nothing but going short of quoting the bible.

Maybe you should take your arguments up with NORMA JEAN, ZAO, AND SYSTEM FAILURE. I'm sure they wouldn't laugh at you either...

xbenx · Post by **xbenx** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:22 pm

Varg wrote:
xbenx wrote:
good job on doing nothing but going short of quoting the bible.

Maybe you should take your arguments up with NORMA JEAN, ZAO, AND SYSTEM FAILURE. I'm sure they wouldn't laugh at you either...

im not spinless. give me the chance to talk to Norma Jean and Zao about how christianity is a CONTRADICTION OF THE IDEALS OF HARDCORE and i will.

fuck norma jean, fuck zao, fuck your bible-thumping attitude.

TooManyHumyns · Post by **TooManyHumyns** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:31 pm

xbenx wrote:
Varg wrote:
xbenx wrote:
good job on doing nothing but going short of quoting the bible.

Maybe you should take your arguments up with NORMA JEAN, ZAO, AND SYSTEM FAILURE. I'm sure they wouldn't laugh at you either...
im not spinless. give me the chance to talk to Norma Jean and Zao about how christianity is a CONTRADICTION OF THE IDEALS OF HARDCORE and i will.

fuck norma jean, fuck zao, fuck your bible-thumping attitude.

ok so what are the "ideals" of hardcore

TooManyHumyns · Post by **TooManyHumyns** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:39 pm

so i take it the person who started this thread is pretty much on the left...but isnt it kind of hypocritical of him to be saying that conservative views have no place in hardcore or whatever...being as most people on the left typically try to exercise there freedom of speech...but xbenx just wants to deny people theres....

Varg · Post by **Varg** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:46 pm

TooManyHumyns wrote:so i take it the person who started this thread is pretty much on the left...but isnt it kind of hypocritical of him to be saying that conservative views have no place in hardcore or whatever...being as most people on the left typically try to exercise there freedom of speech...but xbenx just wants to deny people theres....

That's because they don't know what "hypocrisy" means, duh.

xkristyx · Post by **xkristyx** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:37 pm

Thanks for quoting some shitty bands, Varg! You rule at life!

515 Crew

conservative views have no place in hardcore

:'(

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what the fuck

RE:conservative views have no place in hardcore thank you.

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