515 Crew

http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/388992774522211/
Lately here in Des Moines, a few promoters are asking bands to sell tickets in order to open up for a touring act. For instance they will require you to sell 50 tickets at say $10 each. If you only sell ten tickets, you owe the promoter $400. What the promoter is doing is having the opening bands pay the guarantee to the headliner. Since most people in Des Moines just pay at the door, the promoter gets all the door money, while the openers get fucked in the ass with no lube.

Then there are the Battle of the Bands where a club gets bands to bring a bunch of people in their bar and the contest has nothing to do with which band is actually the best. It's about what band can get people to buy the most drinks.

I am urging all local bands and musicians to refuse to pay to play a gig, sell tickets for a promoter, or enter band battles. If nobody engages in these practices, these shady promoters and clubs will longer be able to get away with what they do.

Thank you and have a great day!

PLEASE LIST THE PROMOTERS

Metro Concerts and RAW Des Moines are two that I know of.

never heard of RAW

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It looks like you apply and they "manage" things for you. whats wrong with that?

I've been saying this shit for years. STOP DOING THEIR FUCKING JOB.


You get absolutely NOTHING out of it. First of all, nobody gives a fuck ever if you open for some touring band- especially the touring bands. Read that again. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK. They aren't there to see you and it's highly unlikely they think your music is as good as you think it is or as good as the music they are there to see.

Still want to play? OK, go sell $500 worth of tickets, $10 a piece x 50 and then turn around and get paid $50 (if you're lucky). Are you fucking retarded? You have all the leverage- demand AT LEAST HALF or don't agree to do the show/sell tickets/DO THE PROMOTERS JOB FOR THEM.

What are they going to do? They're either going to comply or call your bluff and get some other shitty band on short notice who probably has no chance of selling the tickets because even less people know about them than about you to try and cover it, but that might not be a risk they want to take seeing how with you it's more of a 'sure thing'. If all bands would agree to not fuck themselves over then this wouldn't be an issue.

After this happens enough times and these promoters lose their ass on show after show (COUGH EVERY SHOW AT PEOPLE'S COUGH) they will be forced to change the way they do business or stop doing business altogether.

I know some of them personally. I hear even more stories about the ones I don't know. They are laughing at you behind your back. They have their middle finger up at you underneath the table. They are taking advantage of you. They are using you. Stop getting ripped off. STOP DOING THEIR JOB. You know who you are- JUST FUCKING STOP BEING A PART OF IT ALREADY. Lead by example. Tell EVERYONE you know to end this shit in this town. It's a fucking disgrace.
I will never be a part of a show with one of these soul-soliciting pig-fuckers.

Amen Varg! You hit the nail right on the head. I hope you don't mind me pasting your post on the facebook group I created. http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/388992774522211/

If you don't value your music, nobody else will.

Joseph, RAW doesn't manage anything except the money they take in at their "showcases" Why should bands be going out hustling tickets for this group? Take the $500 or whatever you would pay for tickets to be on a show and put on your own show or use it to record.

dont wanna get too into this, but threre's three sides to every story.
I agree that the deal mentioned in the OP (original post) is shady and sounds like crap.

On the other hand, many bands don't spend enough time promoting themselves.

Another issue is some criticism should fall on the shoulders of the touring acts themselves, if this is the shitty deal that they have worked out, don't they have some say in the shows they play?

Reeferseed wrote: I am urging all local bands and musicians to refuse to pay to play a gig, sell tickets for a promoter, or enter band battles. If nobody engages in these practices, these shady promoters and clubs will longer be able to get away with what they do.

this is like day 1 shit, dawg.

I see both sides.

For a promoter it is good to cover yourself. Des Moines has always been a dice roll for attendance (sad fact). It sucks for bands but good for the small audience who would otherwise never see this show roll through town. The bands get some small, reasonable exposure out of it but really nothing thats gonna make or break them.

I agree w/ Varg when he says nobody gives a fuck b/c its true. Most bands try to use opening slots as a resume' but I certainly dont give a shit if you've opened for Hall & Oates. You are not Hall & Oates.

If you are promoter it should be their job to try to get as many asses in seats using all mediums possible. If you are band that has a following it really shouldnt be problem to sell a good amount of presale to get asses in seats.

That being said, paying to play is bogus as fuck. If you are good band, you'll never need to "pay to play". It also makes promoters lazy. Band battles are just plain tacky, and I don't think anyone pays attention to them anyways.

bradleyadita wrote:dont wanna get to into this, but threre's three sides to every story.
I agree that the deal mentioned in the OP (original post) is shady and sounds like crap.

On the other hand, many bands don't spend enough time promoting themselves.

Another issue is some criticism should fall on the shoulders of the touring acts themselves, if this is the shitty deal that they have worked out, don't they have some say in the shows they play?

"Bands don't spend enough time promoting themselves"- Ok, then that's their problem. That has absolutely no relevance to this discussion.



Touring bands don't ever want local openers. They can go over time and cut in to other bands sets, they make you show up earlier for load-in/backlining, and it all makes for a longer day. Trust me- no band ever is stoked to show up and hear there are 12 bands playing today and 7 of them are locals. But you want to blame the touring bands who have NO say in any of this? That argument is about as strong as your join date. Now GTFO.

Beaver wrote: \

If you are promoter it should be their job to try to get as many asses in seats

Yep, and that's it, period. It's not the fucking band's job. That is what promoters GET PAID FOR- for doing actual work, not copping out and dumping their workload on bright-eyed/bushy-tailed unsuspecting kids who basically become their interns.


I don't hear about any of the shows I go to from promoters or see them posting flyers anywhere- I read about it from ignorant dumbfucks in bands (who have been in the same band for years just going around in circles never making any ground) on facebook who are selling tickets to the shows. ***And those are the people who need to be reached out to and who need to be made aware of this. Because without them these promoters would be doomed.


Oh yeah, and when they post about it here on 515...you know...again...for the promoter. Why don't we ever see promoters posting their shows on here when they have active 515 accounts?

Varg wrote:"Bands don't spend enough time promoting themselves"- Ok, then that's their problem. That has absolutely no relevance to this discussion.
Touring bands don't ever want local openers. They can go over time and cut in to other bands sets, they make you show up earlier for load-in/backlining, and it all makes for a longer day. Trust me- no band ever is stoked to show up and hear there are 12 bands playing today and 7 of them are locals. But you want to blame the touring bands who have NO say in any of this? That argument is about as strong as your join date. Now GTFO.

Actually, bands not promoting themselves has a lot to do with this discussion. Figure it out yourself. DIY.

Touring band don't ever want local openers? Maybe not if they are Hall and Oats , but isn't this a hardcore/punk message bored. Hardcore/punk groups almost always have local groups open for them.

When TBR and Masked Intruder played the Gas Lamp a little while back, they had Lipstick Homicide and The Blendours open up for them. Now I know both those openers are not from Des Moines, but they are both great bands and it was a good match to have them open. Oh yeah and most show are 4 or maybe 5 bands. And yeah SOME of the blame falls on a band if they consistently make a habit out of working with shitty promoters. Go ahead and make fun of my join date, as if that has anything to do with anything. I'll make guess and suggest that you didn't read my first post on the bored. Whatevs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9XhsS8OlhI
Jawbreaker - "Bad Scene Everyone's Fault"

oh yeah, and since the link to the facebook group in the OP doesn't work...
here's a link that does (if you are logged into facebook): https://www.facebook.com/groups/388992774522211/

there is absolutely nothing wrong with pay to play. if its something you want to deal with go right ahead. most hardcore/punk rock/diy bands refuse to. i refuse to. i have no issue hanging flyers to help promote. im not gonna do promo for my bands because i dont care if people like them or not.

there is a lot of "goal/career" oriented leaning in dsm to make it in the industry. fuck the industry. fuck a career. but if thats what you want- please go right ahead and try. give it your all. dsm is a very opportunistic popularity contest.

the reason promoters dont post their views is because they have to hold back to present a face of niceness. they have to get along with every genre to succeed.

I see both sides, I think selling tickets to play sucks. At the same time if you can't sell 50 tickets maybe your band just sucks and shouldn't be on the show in the first place.

joseph wrote:there is absolutely nothing wrong with pay to play.

There is a lot wrong with pay to play.

http://neverpaytoplay.com/index.html#10WARN

WHAT DOES PAYING TO PLAY SAY ABOUT YOUR BAND?
These pay-to-play companies will tell you that doing their shows is a way to let people know how hard you can work, that you are a go-getter, that you want to be successful. THAT IS A LIE. In reality, no real hard-working band would ever think of doing a show like this. They know they are a huge waste of time, effort and money...not to mention they’ll do damage to your image. The image your band (or you as a solo act) projects can be as important as the music you play.
So you need to ask yourselves a few questions. For instance, who plays these shows? Aren’t these shows typically filled with beginners and bands who need more practice time? Do your favorite bands ever pay-to-play? Of course not! No legitimate band would ever fall for doing these stinky gigs. They’d never consider selling tickets and handing all the money they collected over to some “company rep”. Older bands view this practice as pathetic.

It’s important to consider what your image will be and how people will view you. What does paying to play say about your band?

* We’re not good enough to do a real show.
* No real club will book us.
* Our music isn’t worth anything.
* Nobody really wants to see us so we have to resort to selling tickets.
* We are desperate.
* Our band isn’t the real deal.

Paying to play sends the wrong message. Doing these shows makes a bad impression. Paying-to-play can do more damage than you think!

Reeferseed wrote:

joseph wrote:there is absolutely nothing wrong with pay to play.

There is a lot wrong with pay to play.

http://neverpaytoplay.com/index.html#10WARN

WHAT DOES PAYING TO PLAY SAY ABOUT YOUR BAND?
These pay-to-play companies will tell you that doing their shows is a way to let people know how hard you can work, that you are a go-getter, that you want to be successful. THAT IS A LIE. In reality, no real hard-working band would ever think of doing a show like this. They know they are a huge waste of time, effort and money...not to mention they’ll do damage to your image. The image your band (or you as a solo act) projects can be as important as the music you play.
So you need to ask yourselves a few questions. For instance, who plays these shows? Aren’t these shows typically filled with beginners and bands who need more practice time? Do your favorite bands ever pay-to-play? Of course not! No legitimate band would ever fall for doing these stinky gigs. They’d never consider selling tickets and handing all the money they collected over to some “company rep”. Older bands view this practice as pathetic.

It’s important to consider what your image will be and how people will view you. What does paying to play say about your band?

* We’re not good enough to do a real show.
* No real club will book us.
* Our music isn’t worth anything.
* Nobody really wants to see us so we have to resort to selling tickets.
* We are desperate.
* Our band isn’t the real deal.

Paying to play sends the wrong message. Doing these shows makes a bad impression. Paying-to-play can do more damage than you think!

i dont understand wtf is up your ass about it.

any amount of common sense shows its not beneficial to a band. it only benefits promoters venues and touring businesses.

but there is nothing wrong with it. it is a business decision. it pushes bands that want to try to 'make it" or whatever. its not like any band is FORCED to do it. are there venues that are pay to play only? im sure there are but i dont know of any in des moines.

im with you that its a dumb fucking decision for a band to make but it is that bands decision.

locals are either booked at local venues because they draw or because no one else will play and they have to fill a bill out to satisfy with either the owner or their contract with the band to provide openers.

did you get rejected an opening slot or something?
shit my bands play for free in town. if we get any money we give it to the touring bands.

if you all want to actually do something about this we could start a band to play pay to play shows only. and then get as many people as possible and just feedback for a 20 minute set....

[quote="joseph
i dont understand wtf is up your ass about it. .[/quote]

I don't like seeing young and unsuspecting bands getting taken advantage of. If the practice becomes rubber stamped in one scene it will spread to others and next thing you know it's going to be that way all over.

It's also about bands undercutting other bands. If a few carpenters in town started offering to pay home owners to build decks for them, the rest of the carpenters in town trying to make a living at it would get really pissed.

It comes down to, you do all the work, they get all the money. It's simply wrong.

thats what happens when people try to make money. if a band isnt smart enough to figure out they cant sell 50 tickets(i couldnt sell 1) and get burnt that is their fault. theres a ton of shitty/shifty promoters/venues/bands.

sometimes you gotta learn the stove is hot by putting your hand on it.

I had a conversation with a dude that was trying to sell me tickets to a show in dsm. His band was opening for one of his favorite bands but it was a pay to play deal. He was so fucking stressed out about selling these tickets he didn't even seem that excited.
If you want to do it..whatever. Ill never do it.

























Unless I get open for Lit.

who is lit?

ive offered to pay guarantees outright to see bands before... its easy than selling cars.

i had no idea the offspring used to have a different name.

The people posting on that page are fucking retarded- either because they can't type a coherent thought or because they're just fucking retarded. These people and bands need to start being named- then mocked and ridiculed. I'll start; Fill in the blank:

_____- fuck you. How many of these shows have you been on? DOZENS? What has it gotten you? A whooping 1,800 likes on Facebook? ________ has 5,000 friends on facebook alone...and you still only manage that much interest after years of pay to play shows? You're not helping the scene and it's not doing anything for you, but what it is doing is making it harder for the next wave of shit bands who are all too ready to take the reigns. Take the hint dude, it's a giant fart and people aren't into it.
______ is quickly aiming to become the next _____ and continuing to screw everyone else over while they screw themselves even harder.
If you needed any proof that promoters don't give a fuck about anything then look no farther than them sticking _____ on a bill with cattle decapitation or ________with the Faceless. The only fuck given is about money. No standards whatsoever.

All these dipshits on here and that group talking with a passive attitude making comments along the lines of "so what, who cares, let them do what they want, it's not my band." Well what happens when it is your band? It's too late by then. How do people not understand the concept of what a slippery slope is? One thing leads to another. Things become common place and are nearly impossible to change. People are COMPLACENT.


Honestly, I saw one comment on that page that made a hell of a lot of sense. I want to see one band, just ONE BAND agree to a pay to play show. Sell ALL the tickets. Hand the promoter half the money the day of the show and say they're keeping the rest. What's gonna happen, they're not gonna let you play? SWEET. You just got paid a nice chunk of money for selling tickets. Go buy shirts with it. Do something to invest in your band with the money you just rightfully made. They're gonna come up short on the guarantee and they can't even take you to small claims or do anything other than not let you sell tickets and promote for them again. How many times does that need to happen before promoters stop their skullduggery shyster ways? Two? Three times? I guarantee that happens four times in a row and EVERYTHING will be different. That's all it takes.


Let's shake things up.

Amen Varg!

Ok, I saw this awhile back. I have plenty of experience in this area. I have set up shows for local, regional, and world touring bands. I have never made a band pay to play. I have always worked out the pay situation prior to a band agreeing to be on one of my shows, even if this means bands knowing they are taking a risk of playing a show and not getting paid. I have never made money off of a show I set up that my band was not playing at. Sometimes I have even "lost" money. I put that in quotations, because I knew that I was not going to take money used promoting a show back from any profits the night of.

I have been in multiple Iowa bands that have been in battle of the bands and pay to play show scenarios. Any battle of the bands in this town that I can think of, post the year 2000, has has had no substantial positive effect on any local artist.

There are two companies that bring shows to Des Moines on a regular basis that ask bands to sell tickets for their shows. Metro Concerts Live and First Fleet Concerts. Raw Des Moines is according to their website: "RAW:natural born artists is an independent arts organization, for artists, by artists.

We're a community made up of creative individuals across the nation.

Our mission is to provide independent artists within the first 10 years of their career with the tools, resources and exposure needed to inspire and cultivate creativity.

We welcome all genres of art including independent film, fashion, music, visual art, performing art, hairstylists, makeup artists and more.

We encourage the creative success of the many visionaries and storytellers of our generation.

RAW currently operates in 54 cities across the United States & Australia and counting ..."

THIS IS UNFOUNDED, and they may actually mean well.....but I would be weary that this is, or could easily become similar to a pyramid scheme......


If I had my own business would I find another model that does not involve bands paying to play a show? Yes, yes I would. However, First Fleet and Metro have always been up front about what kind of agreements would be in place if a band was to be part of one of their shows. Are there negative consequences to this business model. Yes. Many of them have been mentioned in this thread and on the facebook page linked above.

My band is on one "pay to play" show currently. That is the Overkill show coming up in February at Wooly's. In this case, I could not personally afford to book Overkill in Des Moines independently. With that being a fact, I had two options.... A) Overkill does not get booked in Des Moines or B) Overkill gets booked in Des Moines by a company that would in turn make opening bands sell tickets. I chose B.

Here is where it get's dicey. I think we all could agree that if a band cared about having a turn out at their shows, that they should make people aware of the show by way of flyers and promotion in the area surrounding the venue of the show. If we sell all of our tickets for this show, for a band that we respect and that we want to play in our town, we do not lose money, and we get to support Overkill. If we should be out putting up/handing out flyers around town anyway, and sell tickets to people who want to go to this show to see Overkill in the process, than this can become a positive situation. If we sell all the tickets that we are responsible for per our per-determined agreement, are well stocked on merchandise, and play a set that people enjoy prior to Overkill taking the stage, we will make some amount of money off of this event.

Do I think that companies like these could and should be doing more to promote their shows and to support local and regional artists? Yes! If your purpose of playing a show in Des Moines is solely to make money, should you take part in a battle of the bands or a pay to play show? Fuck no!