515 Crew

Why didn't she like it? I thought it was great.

storkus wrote:Pretty fucking incendiary..

I've only seen the trailer and I've always thought Bill Maher was a cocksucker, so I doubt I'll end up watching this. Anyways, is it really "incendiary"? To me this seems like a very well-worn and predictable path. Yeah, religion (namely and probably close to exclusively Christianity) is stupid, anyone who believes in some sort of diety is an idiot, let's find the biggest nutjobs out there and make a mockery out of them, throw out some knee-jerk metaphors to discredit some heavy philosophical questions, etc.

I don't know, I'm sure it was entertaining and all, but I can't picture it as being anything more than the theological equivalent of a round of soggy cracker.

i saw it on saturday afternoon in a theater filled with old people.


it's a good one.

The god/no-god debate is ridiculous. from both sides. watched the trailer... it looks pretty dumb. that's all.

storkus wrote:Actually, you're wrong because believing in a "god" that humans can identify and understand is fucking ridiculous and idiotic.

2nd'd.

This is at the Varsity I take it? I saw the trailer a few days ago. I'll probably peep it.

Saw it at the Fleur Cinema/Cafe this weekend. Storkus has posted a good summary of what this documentary is all about. I enjoyed watching it, but I think Christians, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Islamists and Scientologists who have already decided their manuals are 100% factual would have a very difficult time staying in the theater for the entire movie (a couple people Maher interviews have the same reaction to his questions/open doubting). I think Maher made this movie more for agnostics and atheists and encourages them to be open about their problems with organized religion and the political and societal ills which result from the lack of independent thinking and open discourse.

The basic premise is that in our well-intentioned attempts at tolerance, we've permitted people with illogical and stupid beliefs to run roughshod over our right to be .....

Tell me about it...

It's now totally acceptable to be told that I'm going to hell, but it's offensive for me to politely point out the obvious untruths in the major dogmatic religions and enormous lapses of common sense required to follow them.

I don't know, I'm not getting the same sort of climate you're describing. Most people I come into contact with on a daily basis aren't openly religious and the ones that are usually get ridiculed for it. I wouldn't say there's a very hostile climate towards atheists or anything these days. While in-your-face religion is out there, I don't think it's as prominent as it's made out to be.


I

don't agree with your point about discrediting heavy philosophical questions, because Christianity, Judaism, and Islam don't address any real philosophical questions in a logical way. They basically discredit themselves by simply reading their texts without a lens of sentimental suspension of disbelief.

Personal preference. This sort of thing isn't my field of expertise, but there are some very brilliant minds out there in the field of religion that can address these philosophical questions better than the Chick Tracks-esque answers we're all used to getting. If I'm going to explore these questions, I guess I'd rather do it with people like that instead of a sword swallower like Bill Maher. I'm sure he's more entertaining though.

And, yeah, it actually is pretty incendiary. He literally says that believing in a religion is a mental disorder, and has a neuroscientist providing evidence for the claim, for example.

Like I said, you should go see it, if for nothing else, so we can debate the points presented in the movie if you find them to be untrue.

I don't know, I think I'll give you a rain check on that one until I can watch it without paying for it. I'm not a very religious person myself, but I understand the role Christianity has played in making me who I am. I view shit like this as an insult to the majority of people I learned the concept of right and wrong from (family members, neighbors, friends, religious historical figures' examples, etc) and my culture. Give money to a dicksucker like Bill Maher who wants to tell me that my grandmother has a mental disorder? No thanks. If there's some bootlegged shit on the web or something, by all means post it and I'll watch it. Until then, I'll wait until I stumble upon it.

I generally agree with El Rhino's sentiments above.... but aside from that:

More specifically, I repeat, the entire concept of the God/no-God debate is absurd. This is ultimately a matter of personal belief. If you take science to its ultimate extreme, science will only be able to prove whatever science can possibly prove.... So even if science can prove, without a doubt, that "there is no God", there still exists the possibility that there is a God who designed the parameters of the physical universe such that he/she/it is ultimately undiscoverable... i.e. in a way that science may be able to prove within the bounds of science that there is no god.... make sense? This is a simple, well-understood concept--the idea that a subsystem may not always be able to recognize a supersystem of which it is a part.... On that note, atheism is equally as silly as, if not more silly than, theism as general religious philosophy.

That being said, I think both sides of the debate are going to have to start pulling their heads out of their asses pretty soon as the following things are becoming more and more clear:

1. Organized religion is, by and large, a sham. Mass mind-control cults. This is hard to swallow for adherents. (However, this has NO logical bearing whatsoever on whether there exists a "God"... this is a huge problem with the way a lot of atheists think...)

2. On the other side of things, physical matter as we know it, and thus the entire physical universe, is NOT the end all be all of reality. And neither is this physical existence. This is something that science is actually starting to discover.... Consciousness is non-local, and can exist outside the physical body... Consciousness spawned the physical universe, not vice versa.... I don't even know where to begin with all of this...

Check out nuclear physisict Dr. Thomas Campbell's "non-physical realms" lecture series on youtube (or his My big TOE [Theory of Everything] book trilogy) for some far better explanations of what I'm trying to get across here...

In summation: The whole "'You're stupid for believing in God!' 'No YOU'RE stupid for not believing in God!'" argument is fucking kid's stuff. Get over it. People will ultimately believe what they want to believe.... in the meantime there's some real shit going down that's bringing all you nimrods much closer together in the collective consciousness sense than you think.

Love,
Crumpty

Edit: Sorry for calling you nimrods. I couldn't help it.

I think you can pretty much do, say, or believe anything you want.

great title

Listening to the Podcast Fresh Air interview with Bill Maher and the director Larry Charles. Really good. It's free.

storkus wrote: I also don't buy the argument that religion is solely responsible for the basic moral 'rights-and-wrongs' that shape our society. I don't think that I would've grown up thinking it was fine to kill people or steal their shit, had I not had a forced and short-lived encounter with religiosity as a preteen. I could counter with examples of how religion has caused giant betrayals of those moral ideals, but I think we can all draw our own lineage to that point with a lot less typing.
]

I wouldn't say solely either, but I think it's a large part. You may feel you have a good moral compass despite very limited contact with religion, but odds are good that the people who taught you these things in your formative years were either Christians or influenced by them. If they weren't, then most likely the people who shaped their morality were. Like you said, it's so engrained in our culture that it runs a little deeper than face value here.

It's hard to tell exactly how much of our morals as a society are directly related to Christianity or some other religion, as we don't really have a God-free alternative to compare it to in the Western world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLz ... re=related

el rhino wrote:you may feel you have a good moral compass despite very limited contact with religion, but odds are good that the people who taught you these things in your formative years were either Christians or influenced by them. If they weren't, then most likely the people who shaped their morality were. Like you said, it's so engrained in our culture that it runs a little deeper than face value here.

I actually sort of agree with you, ryan. I believe that many of the "moral laws" that people adhere to stem from religious backgrounds--it's still the center of our civilization. However, I think it's ridiculous to suggest that these moral codes are what solely shape our actions. People genuinely want to co-exist with one another and act accordingly because they want to, not because morality dictates. If anything, religion pits us against each other to contend over whose moral law is "true"--the bloodiest of wars were fought between opponents who each thought they were fighting on the side of moral truth.

Religion stifles progress in human relations and requires cowardice, ignorance and submission.

However, I think it's ridiculous to suggest that these moral codes are what solely shape our actions.

I never said it solely shaped our actions.

.

If anything, religion pits us against each other to contend over whose moral law is "true"--the bloodiest of wars were fought between opponents who each thought they were fighting on the side of moral truth.

...and it also brought people together to fight alongside each other...and other peaceful things, of course.

Religion stifles progress in human relations and requires cowardice, ignorance and submission.

I don't know about that. I think it generally takes more balls to stand up and say "Yes, I believe in God and this is what I stand for" than "I don't know, I don't really believe in God". Submission, sure. I have difficulty just writing off religious beliefs as ignorance. Think what you want, but I think it's not giving enough credit to some to just call it all ignorant.

el rhino wrote:I don't know about that. I think it generally takes more balls to stand up and say "Yes, I believe in God and this is what I stand for" than "I don't know, I don't really believe in God". Submission, sure. I have difficulty just writing off religious beliefs as ignorance. Think what you want, but I think it's not giving enough credit to some to just call it all ignorant.

it takes more balls to abdicate power over everything to a deity that cannot be scientifically proven(and defies all common sense) than to rely on your own self-determination to decide for yourself what is "right" or "wrong"? somehow, i can't agree.

again, i think you're right in saying that much of our way of life is based upon old moral codes that were instilled by religion--but the fundamental elements that allow us to coexist with one another/basic human rights are intrinsic and are not dictated by morality. i think we'd do much better as a species to do away with the concept of morality as a whole and decide for ourselves what is right and wrong; if everyone's perspectives on ethics and values were acknowledged we might get along better.

I agree with Nick's review of the movie. Maher expresses points of view that I have felt for a long time, and it's wonderful to see them up on the big screen. A big point he's making is the fact that while people should obviously feel no shame for believing whatever they believe (as silly as I might find it), their unproven spiritual beliefs should not be the law of the land. I am absolutely, rigidly opposed to any type of religious legislation. We have moved beyond the need for that.

A couple weak points of Religulous would be the facts that Maher sometimes interrupts people and doesn't let them finish their side, and that the editing is probably geared towards making a few people look goofier than they actually are. But I can deal with that. Maher only wants to tell us that he doesn't have the ultimate answers, just the logical answers.

::rolling joint with bible page::

El Rhino wrote: I don't know about that. I think it generally takes more balls to stand up and say "Yes, I believe in God and this is what I stand for" than "I don't know, I don't really believe in God". Submission, sure. I have difficulty just writing off religious beliefs as ignorance. Think what you want, but I think it's not giving enough credit to some to just call it all ignorant.

It also kind of depends on your background. If you've been brought up with the bible pounded into your brain every day, it might be harder to truly believe "I don't believe in God". A person could say it, but an element of that will still be jammed in there. It's easier to live if someone or something else is really in control.

Hank Fist wrote:

El Rhino wrote: I don't know about that. I think it generally takes more balls to stand up and say "Yes, I believe in God and this is what I stand for" than "I don't know, I don't really believe in God". Submission, sure. I have difficulty just writing off religious beliefs as ignorance. Think what you want, but I think it's not giving enough credit to some to just call it all ignorant.

It also kind of depends on your background. If you've been brought up with the bible pounded into your brain every day, it might be harder to truly believe "I don't believe in God". A person could say it, but an element of that will still be jammed in there. It's easier to live if someone or something else is really in control.

There are a million personal, subjective reasons why any given person might choose to believe--or not to believe--in an higher power that are far more sophisticated than "I believe what I've been told" and "it's easier to live if something else is really in control".... I think you're really doing some unfair pigeonholing when you assume that anyone who believes in God is some sort of mindless, uneducated automoton incapable of grappling with the nature of his or her own existence.

While it's true that a LOT of people ARE this way, it has no logical bearing on the rationality of a belief in God in itself.... this is why Religilous doesn't look that appealing to me--it appears to (but do correct me if I'm wrong) be a film that focuses on the negative symptoms of mass institutionalization and then use that as fodder to promote some kind of anti-God worldview.... It's oversimple, logically retarded, and even somewhat propagandizing to focus on some idiont religious zealots and then rally around to the tune of, "See, believing in GOd is STUPID! Look how STUPID these people are! You must be STUPID if you believe in God, too!"

Crumpty Williams wrote:

Hank Fist wrote:

El Rhino wrote: I don't know about that. I think it generally takes more balls to stand up and say "Yes, I believe in God and this is what I stand for" than "I don't know, I don't really believe in God". Submission, sure. I have difficulty just writing off religious beliefs as ignorance. Think what you want, but I think it's not giving enough credit to some to just call it all ignorant.

It also kind of depends on your background. If you've been brought up with the bible pounded into your brain every day, it might be harder to truly believe "I don't believe in God". A person could say it, but an element of that will still be jammed in there. It's easier to live if someone or something else is really in control.

There are a million personal, subjective reasons why any given person might choose to believe--or not to believe--in an higher power that are far more sophisticated than "I believe what I've been told" and "it's easier to live if something else is really in control".... I think you're really doing some unfair pigeonholing when you assume that anyone who believes in God is some sort of mindless, uneducated automoton incapable of grappling with the nature of his or her own existence. While it's true that a LOT of people ARE this way, it has no logical bearing on the rationality of a belief in God in itself....

I'm not saying they are constantly thinking that, maybe not at all, but what's the point of believing in a god if not to know there is a greater power watching over you, explaining the point of your existence, and giving you a place to go when you die?

Hank Fist wrote: I'm not saying they are constantly thinking that, maybe not at all, but what's the point of believing in a god if not to know there is a greater power watching over you, explaining the point of your existence, and giving you a place to go when you die?

guilt

Hank Fist wrote: I'm not saying they are constantly thinking that, maybe not at all, but what's the point of believing in a god if not to know there is a greater power watching over you, explaining the point of your existence, and giving you a place to go when you die?

Well, ok. As you may have guessed, I believe in some kind of higher intelligence (actually, many levels of higher consciousness, but I won't bore you with all those details). At the core of things, an ultimate, all-knowing kind of super consciousness--I guess you could say, God. Not because I see some special "point" to having this belief, but rather because it's a conclusion that I have reached based on all that I have learned and experienced up to this point in my life.

It's not a belief that I hold because of some psychological inadequacy, guilt or a way to escape any kind of rational thought.... In fact it's the exact opposite--something I've given more thought and reason to than just about anything else in my life. It's simply a personal conclusion I've reached based on the entire sum of my life experiences thus far.

Do I think I'm right about it? Well, yeah. That's why I believe it, because I think it's true.

Do I think anyone who thinks there is no God is an idiot? No. Like I said, I believe what I believe because it's a subjective conclusion that I have reached. I realize that everyone has the right to come to his or her own conclusions on such matters, and its not my place to judge their beliefs. I would hope that people on the other side of the coin have a mutual respect in that regard.

they just don't get it pratt. maybe you need to rap it to them.

I saw a Maher interview a few days ago and I believe he specified that he wasn't out to attack the general idea of a god or a creator, but the notion that organized religion has the answer to who this creator is, or that they act on its behalf.

The idea of a god or higher power can be completely separate from the superstitions and stories that make up organized religion... and that seems to be the premise that this movie is based upon.

I'm going to see it on Friday, I think.

storkus wrote:Pratt, would you read my fucking posts, already?

The movie does not say that believing in god is stupid. It does not say that you should stop believing in "higher powers."

It says that believing in the religions it highlights is stupid, because they rely on historically inaccurate and ridiculous fairy tales. They also rely on the suspension of logic in order to believe in them, which is something you obviously haven't done in forming your faith, so stop acting like we're out to get you.

I actually think you would like the movie.

storkus, storkus, chill the fizazzle
i was just respondin' to the hank fistazzle wazzle
i read up on your posts i know you ain't out ta get me
its just crump to the tizzy and your mama likes to pet me

that was for crow.

it's just not the same if i don't end up with your spit all over my cheek.

crow wrote:it's just not the same if i don't end up with your spit all over my cheek.

Crumpty Williams wrote:

storkus wrote:Pratt, would you read my fucking posts, already?

The movie does not say that believing in god is stupid. It does not say that you should stop believing in "higher powers."

It says that believing in the religions it highlights is stupid, because they rely on historically inaccurate and ridiculous fairy tales. They also rely on the suspension of logic in order to believe in them, which is something you obviously haven't done in forming your faith, so stop acting like we're out to get you.

I actually think you would like the movie.

storkus, storkus, chill the fizazzle
i was just respondin' to the hank fistazzle wazzle
i read up on your posts i know you ain't out ta get me
its just crump to the tizzy and your mama likes to pet me

that was for crow.

this is religulous!!!

I stand by what I said......

also.....

I personally never found Bill Maher that funny, or that witty.

And that was without even knowing, or caring about his views on religion.

Religion and spirituality are different things......

Everyone needs to decide for themselves their own path.
It is fine to discuss, but it just makes you sound ignorant if you argue a point as if your belief is the right one.

You never know when something might cause you to change your belief as well.

I think that atheists are equally intolerant of theists these days.

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Didn't white folk come to this continent in part to escape religious persecution?

Free speech works both ways, and although you have free speech, there should be responsibility that comes along with it.

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I am not mocking or singling anyone out, it just was my thoughts after reading the above posts.

dude you are a terrible match for this board


sayins