515 Crew

'Speak English' signs allowed at Philly shop
Commission on Human Rights rules Geno's postings do not discriminate
The Associated Press
updated 7:27 p.m. CT, Wed., March. 19, 2008
PHILADELPHIA - The owner of a famous cheesesteak shop did not discriminate when he posted signs asking customers to speak English, a city panel ruled Wednesday.

In a 2-1 vote, a Commission on Human Relations panel found that two signs at Geno's Steaks telling customers, "This is America: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH,'" do not violate the city's Fair Practices Ordinance.

Shop owner Joe Vento has said he posted the signs in October 2005 because of concerns over immigration reform and an increasing number of people in the area who could not order in English.

Vento has said he never refused service to anyone because they couldn't speak English. But critics argued that the signs discourage customers of certain backgrounds from eating at the shop.

Commissioners Roxanne E. Covington and Burt Siegel voted to dismiss the complaint, finding that the sign does not communicate that business will be "refused, withheld or denied."

In a dissenting opinion, Commissioner Joseph J. Centeno said he thought the signs did discourage some customers.

"The sign appeared immediately above another sign that had the following words: 'Management Reserves the Right to Refuse Service,'" Centeno wrote.

New immigrants in Italian neighborhood
Geno's and its chief rival across the street, Pat's King of Steaks, are two of the city's best known cheesesteak venues. A growing number of Asian and Latin American immigrants have moved into the traditionally Italian neighborhood in recent years.

Vento had threatened to go to court if he lost. His attorney, Albert G. Weiss, said he was "pleasantly surprised" by Wednesday's decision.

"We expected that this was not going to go our way," Weiss said.

In February 2007, the commission found probable cause against Geno's for discrimination, alleging that the policy discourages customers of certain backgrounds from eating there.

The case went to a public hearing, where an attorney for the commission argued that the sign was about intimidation, not political speech. The matter then went to the three-member panel for a ruling.

W. Nick Taliaferro, the commission's executive director, said he would not appeal.

Que?

is it illegal for private businesses to discriminate on customers?

crow wrote:is it illegal for private businesses to discriminate on customers?

like having a non smoking bar? (sorry i cant stop) no its not illegal to discriminate as in the right to refuse service... it is borderline of "hate crime" to verbally slander someone of their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. whether its in a private or public place...
but he didnt hang a sign that said "no service to immigrants" he hung a sign that said "please, speak english when ordering" ...

joseph wrote:but he didnt hang a sign that said "no service to immigrants" he hung a sign that said "please, speak english when ordering" ...

my point was even if he did do the "no service to immigrants", would that be illegal? why?

crow wrote:

joseph wrote:but he didnt hang a sign that said "no service to immigrants" he hung a sign that said "please, speak english when ordering" ...

my point was even if he did do the "no service to immigrants", would that be illegal? why?

i dont think it would be illegal, but it would be challenged. possibly being defined as "hate speech". i dont think it should be illegal. i think a private business should be able to discriminate/profile whoever they choose

This is pretty fucking lame of them to do, but really....how hard is it to "Cheese or No Cheese"?

Beaver wrote:This is pretty fucking lame of them to do, but really....how hard is it to "Cheese or No Cheese"?

its a philly CHEESEsteak

You have with or without....like when we cuddle and like to have you either beard or no beard.

Beaver wrote:You have with or without....like when we cuddle and like to have you either beard or no beard.

O k. like sometimes foreplay and sometimes not. i get it now

I think we've already hashed this one out a long time ago when it first came to light.


I don't think "Please speak English" is an outlandish request by any means. If they can read the sign, I'm sure they can order food in English. It's not that hard, I've done it in foreign langauges too. "One please" and "thank you" isn't exactly memorizing a Shakespearian soliloquy.

I MIGHT be in the Philadelphia area in May. If so, I plan on patronizing this guy's fine establishment.

if they don't speak english, how can they read the sign?

joseph wrote:i think a private business should be able to discriminate/profile whoever they choose

you really think this? that's alarming. if you're a xenophobe, don't open a business that deals with the public.

@nonymous wrote:

joseph wrote:i think a private business should be able to discriminate/profile whoever they choose

you really think this? that's alarming. if you're a xenophobe, don't open a business that deals with the public.

yes i believe it. i didnt say i agree with it. i think its a personal choice to be a... bigot or whatever name you wanna use.

joseph wrote:yes i believe it. i didnt say i agree with it. i think its a personal choice to be a... bigot or whatever name you wanna use.

sure, it is a personal choice. but something that is open to the public that offers a service should be open to anyone. he even says that his reasons for the ban is political("immigration reform concerns"). i don't believe in property rights in the first place, so i guess we won't see eye to eye on this. seems like a no-brainer to me though.

@nonymous wrote:

joseph wrote:i think a private business should be able to discriminate/profile whoever they choose

you really think this? that's alarming. if you're a xenophobe, don't open a business that deals with the public.

Do you know what freedom means?

Sometimes, I wonder, but if you really mean things half of the ways that they sound, Your ideas could me far more frightening than any racist's.

Just because you don't agree with something that does not mean it should be prohibited. The amazing thing is, you don't have to frequent this place. I know I wouldn't... but I also wouldn't kick up a fuss and ask it to be shut down.

@nonymous wrote:

joseph wrote:yes i believe it. i didnt say i agree with it. i think its a personal choice to be a... bigot or whatever name you wanna use.

sure, it is a personal choice. but something that is open to the public that offers a service should be open to anyone. he even says that his reasons for the ban is political("immigration reform concerns"). i don't believe in property rights in the first place, so i guess we won't see eye to eye on this. seems like a no-brainer to me though.

hes not banning anyone...
i dont know that hes really providing a public service. i know anybody could argue it any way. but its not like hes running water works or the power company or anything.
i dont get the property rights mention? if you paid for it and own it and pay the taxes on it shouldnt you be able to do as you please?

thom wrote:Do you know what freedom means?

Sometimes, I wonder, but if you really mean things half of the ways that they sound, Your ideas could me far more frightening than any racist's.

Just because you don't agree with something that does not mean it should be prohibited. The amazing thing is, you don't have to frequent this place. I know I wouldn't... but I also wouldn't kick up a fuss and ask it to be shut down.

first, it's important to note that i am not for the government banning anyone to do anything. but do i think it's acceptable for someone(govn't, business or otherwise) to impose their will on someone else? no. it's legal for army recruiters to exist, but i don't think they should. it's legal for logging companies to exist and genetically engineering companies to exist, but i don't think they should.

freedom doesn't mean doing anything you want regardless of the effect it has on others. that's what it means in america, but that is not the definition.

the contradiction for anyone who disagrees with capitalism is that most of the solutions to problems are not legal or frowned upon.

joseph wrote:i dont get the property rights mention? if you paid for it and own it and pay the taxes on it shouldnt you be able to do as you please?

well, i think the idea of owning a piece of land is pretty ridiculous, especially to the extent we do today. that's an entirely different issue though.

Yes you should be able to....and anyone that would think/say differently, probably has never 'owned' a business.

i own a business, and i don't think it's right. government shouldn't step in, but the locals should put a stop to it.

@nonymous wrote:first, it's important to note that i am not for the government banning anyone to do anything. but do i think it's acceptable for someone(govn't, business or otherwise) to impose their will on someone else? no. it's legal for army recruiters to exist, but i don't think they should. it's legal for logging companies to exist and genetically engineering companies to exist, but i don't think they should.

freedom doesn't mean doing anything you want regardless of the effect it has on others. that's what it means in america, but that is not the definition.

the contradiction for anyone who disagrees with capitalism is that most of the solutions to problems are not legal or frowned upon.

I guess I should have assumed that you would overstate my opinion in an effort to make me sound bigoted and look like a fool.

When you say absolute freedom, you have to be for it. You can't be "kinda for freedom" you are saying that this guy can't do this, because you don't like it.

In your shop there is a sign that says that there is no public phone. I can see the phone when I walk in. I have seen people make calls on it. As a paying customer you are denying my the right to communicate with others.

Obviously I am over simplifying the issue, but do you get where I'm going? Its basically the same deal. If it were a public institution (like a waterworks, something you HAVE to go to) I'd be right there with you, but its a fucking cheese steak joint. No one has to go there for anything. In a perfect world with absolute freedoms we would allow this guy to put dumb ass signs up, and no one would go there...and he would learn his lessons about xenophobia.

If that makes me racist, then I guess so. Saying this is an instance of oppression is going a little far.

thom wrote:I guess I should have assumed that you would overstate my opinion in an effort to make me sound bigoted and look like a fool.

When you say absolute freedom, you have to be for it. You can't be "kinda for freedom" you are saying that this guy can't do this, because you don't like it.

In your shop there is a sign that says that there is no public phone. I can see the phone when I walk in. I have seen people make calls on it. As a paying customer you are denying my the right to communicate with others.

Obviously I am over simplifying the issue, but do you get where I'm going? Its basically the same deal. If it were a public institution (like a waterworks, something you HAVE to go to) I'd be right there with you, but its a fucking cheese steak joint. No one has to go there for anything. In a perfect world with absolute freedoms we would allow this guy to put dumb ass signs up, and no one would go there...and he would learn his lessons about xenophobia.

If that makes me racist, then I guess so. Saying this is an instance of oppression is going a little far.

i never said it was oppressive, necessarily, nor did i call you a racist. to me, this isn't just about whether this dude can or can't put up a sign. it's about the ongoing subtle racism that exists in our country towards people and cultures we don't understand, or don't care to.

i don't think the government should interfere here. and i really don't care too much about this, it just reminds me of larger issues.

the bpe phone thing doesn't compare, as we don't let anyone use the phone--regardless of their background(excluding friends).

anyways, someone should just pie this guy.

@nonymous wrote:the bpe phone thing doesn't compare, as we don't let anyone use the phone--regardless of their background(excluding friends).

ouch.

ouch?

I never got to use the phone.

I'm no one's friend.

I never asked though...

you can use the phone anytime you want thom.

i don't speak spanish. They'd have to point, and it's more than likely they get the wrong shit. but whatever. people can put whatever they want up. if i had 30 dudes a day coming in speaking spanish, i'd think of that as another 180 bucks(6x30). in mexicanish.

if the sign drove some customers away, isnt he shooting himself in the foot? i can understand wanting customers to know enough english to get the message across though.

noel_nothing wrote:if the sign drove some customers away, isnt he shooting himself in the foot? i can understand wanting customers to know enough english to get the message across though.

That guy has more business than he knows what to do with. I doubt the sign is hurting his business at all. All I know is I think it's funny when people come into where I work and get all pissed at me because I can't understand what the hell they're saying, like it's somehow my fault they can't speak English well enough to get their message across.

@nonymous wrote: i never said it was oppressive, necessarily, nor did i call you a racist. to me, this isn't just about whether this dude can or can't put up a sign. it's about the ongoing subtle racism that exists in our country towards people and cultures we don't understand, or don't care to.

i don't think the government should interfere here. and i really don't care too much about this, it just reminds me of larger issues.

the bpe phone thing doesn't compare, as we don't let anyone use the phone--regardless of their background(excluding friends).

anyways, someone should just pie this guy.

Funny you mention not caring to understand culture. How would you feel about an American going to say, Portugal and trying to order breakfast in English and expecting to be understood? I'm sure in your head you would think about dumb, arrogant American stereotypes. What's the difference?

I suppose before we go any further we should mention a few things. The sign is probably meant more to be tongue in cheek than anything and like myself and others have said, if they can't parle l'anglais the sign is meaningless. From a business standpoint, I imagine this place does a high volume of fast-paced business. The last thing they need is some four foot tall asshole straight off the farm from Mexico holding up the line trying to fumble-fuck through a simple process of ordering a sandwich. It's not that hard. I'm certain that a substancial portion of the non-English speaking world knows how to say "One please, thank you". But yeah, the sign is kind of pointless if they can't read English.

Anyways, back to culture. Are we the close minded and ignorant ones because we'd prefer to use the common langauge of this country to do business, or are the immigrants/documented workers/illegal invaders of our country close minded and ignorant for refusing to learn a few simple phrases of the langauge of our culture? Sounds to me like the ones who aren't using English to order are saying "Fuck you guys, I'm just here for a paycheck. I don't really care about your culture or country" (but in a different langauge, of course).

Respect for other's culture is a two way street, holmes. I know you're programmed to automatically dismiss everything Anglo-American as being in the wrong, but I'm here to tell you that you're wrong and show you who the bad guys really are. I'm glad we can finally settle this one.


PS: I think an exemption should be made for tourists, although they're stupid if they come to visit the United States without enough knowledge of English to order a fucking sandwich.