515 Crew

joseph wrote:
and damaged is the start of black flag getting insanely good but not many people agree with me.

oh that's for god damn sure.

first four years is the fucking shit though, i got that shit in like fourth grade and couldn't handle it.

HOWEVER, the rollins shit is the best.

fav album list for me goes

slip it in
my war
first four years

from the few pieces that i've heard that came after damage i gotta say i like the earlier stuff better. that's just me personnally.

as far as wasted goes, both ginn & morris are listed as songwriters. i'm guessing ginn came up with the music & morris wrote the lyrics. those lyrics pretty much sum up keiths life at that stage.

here's a link from allmusic.com with a review, track listing & composer of those songs.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/nervous-breakdown-r1959

noel_nothing wrote:from the few pieces that i've heard that came after damage i gotta say i like the earlier stuff better. that's just me personnally.

as far as wasted goes, both ginn & morris are listed as songwriters. i'm guessing ginn came up with the music & morris wrote the lyrics. those lyrics pretty much sum up keiths life at that stage.

here's a link from allmusic.com with a review, track listing & composer of those songs.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/nervous-breakdown-r1959

black flags lyrics are pretty meh

joseph wrote:

DaVo wrote:

joseph wrote:ill never understand why keith gets credit for anything.

and varg is right. this band sucks.

Hmmm, he was the first singer for one of the most well known Hardcore Punk bands and he fronted the Circle Jerks for what 20 years? I do think that it counts for something. Greg and him went round and round on who wrote what. I even asked Spot when I met him and he refused to answer. Still even without the Black Flag stuff there is the whole Circle Jerks Catalog and the impact they made on the Hardcore Scene. The Circle Jerks were one of the bands all those Straight Edge DC and Boston bands were trying to sound like.

IVE NEVER LIKED THE CIRCLE JERKS. i thought everybody liked him for being a jerk piece of shit asshole front man drunk screamer singer? i could be wrong like i said i dont like the circle jerks and he wasnt really in black flag for that long.

i dont know what dc/boston straight edge bands youre talking about?

every time i think of circle jerks i think of "youve bet weve got something personal against you"

ive always thought black flags singers were easily replaced. what do you mean who wrote what? lyrics or music?

Lyrics. The fact is he quite the band, sold all his records and moved out of LA saying he wanted nothing to do with music ever again. Then started moved back and started the Circle Jerks with Greg Hetson from Redd Kross. There was a dispute over who wrote "Wasted" and "Fix Me".

Nervous Breakdown was a huge influence over the D.C. Hardcore Scene along with Group Sex. Including the early Bad Brains, who moved to NYC by the time most of the major bands aka Minor Threat, Scream, etc... formed. In fact, the one show tour that The Teen Idols did ended up at the famous Circle Jerks show in SF where the HB Kids started a full on riot. This show is what the song Nazi Punks Fuck Off is based on. Ian McKay and Rollins have both stated that this show Headlined by the Circle Jerks was a huge influence over what the D.C. scene became.

Boston was greatly effected by the bands from D.C. playing Boston which most of the early bands like SSD, Gang Green, Jerry Kids formed after seeing the DC bands. So the line goes - LA then DC then Boston then NYC then outward. So yeah they were all influenced by two bands fronted by Keith Morris.

joseph wrote:

kurtis wrote:Circle Jerks - Wasted > Black Flag - Wasted

I never really cared much for Black Flag.

I never really cared much for Circle Jerks besides group sex

i think wasted might be the worst black flag song and its a black flag song. circle jerks is a cover. covers are not punk rock/hordcore whatevers

Not a cover. Keith wrote the Lyrics and Greg wrote the music. It is one of those situations where Greg and Keith had a fight and both continued to play the song after that. I don't think Greg even created Keith with writing credits. I'll have to pull out the single and check.

joseph wrote:

noel_nothing wrote:morris wrote wasted so it's not really a cover. it's his song & he can do it in whatever band he wants.

you bet we've got something personal against you is the WORST black flag song that i've heard, but i've never listened to any album past damaged so there could be more. whose idea was it to take wasted & put new & incredibly bad lyrics over it? those lyrics are so stretched out. it's like someone thought they were being funny/clever but never knew how stupid they were acting.

morris is my favorite black flag vocalist with dez in 2nd.

what do you mean wrote? lyrics? and you think wasted is good lyrically?

and damaged is the start of black flag getting insanely good but not many people agree with me. i still think before damaged they were just some dumb kinda good but silly band for the most part.

best thing morris did was marry debbie gibson

First off that Robin Hitchcock cover song with Debbie Gibson is the best part of the last Circle Jerk Record.

Damage was the last good record they did. The worst being either Family Man or the Process of Weeding Out. Maybe cause there was no one left to stand up to Greg at all. Black Flag became his solo project. Everyone was pretty much hired help after that. The interesting thing about it is that most of the material was written before Rollins even joined the band. What delayed the release was the law suit with Unicorn Records. Maybe without the Law suit he might have gotten all of that out of his system in a record and moved on.

DaVo wrote:

joseph wrote:i think wasted might be the worst black flag song and its a black flag song. circle jerks is a cover. covers are not punk rock/hordcore whatevers

Not a cover. Keith wrote the Lyrics and Greg wrote the music. It is one of those situations where Greg and Keith had a fight and both continued to play the song after that. I don't think Greg even created Keith with writing credits. I'll have to pull out the single and check.

it was written by black flag so anybody else that plays it is playing a cover. when ginn does it on his solo tours its a cover.

we have completely different conclusions. what garfield and mackaye brought back to dc was the intensity of the music/situation. i dont agree on the whole what started where/when deal. im not trying to argue teh same shit we always seem to nag about. OBVIOUSLY we have different opinions its fine.

DaVo wrote:
First off that Robin Hitchcock cover song with Debbie Gibson is the best part of the last Circle Jerk Record.

Damage was the last good record they did. The worst being either Family Man or the Process of Weeding Out. Maybe cause there was no one left to stand up to Greg at all. Black Flag became his solo project. Everyone was pretty much hired help after that. The interesting thing about it is that most of the material was written before Rollins even joined the band. What delayed the release was the law suit with Unicorn Records. Maybe without the Law suit he might have gotten all of that out of his system in a record and moved on.

we do have really different ideas. process of weeding out and family man are fucking insane. its when they went for the evolution. i love that they tried new shit and didnt stick with the same formula bull they couldve like so many bands do. i love that they arent really in a "genre". their shit changed so much from where they started but they could play anything from any period and it worked. which in my opinion is what makes them so great

jesus fuck, i love black flag.

joseph wrote:

DaVo wrote:
First off that Robin Hitchcock cover song with Debbie Gibson is the best part of the last Circle Jerk Record.

Damage was the last good record they did. The worst being either Family Man or the Process of Weeding Out. Maybe cause there was no one left to stand up to Greg at all. Black Flag became his solo project. Everyone was pretty much hired help after that. The interesting thing about it is that most of the material was written before Rollins even joined the band. What delayed the release was the law suit with Unicorn Records. Maybe without the Law suit he might have gotten all of that out of his system in a record and moved on.

we do have really different ideas. process of weeding out and family man are fucking insane. its when they went for the evolution. i love that they tried new shit and didnt stick with the same formula bull they couldve like so many bands do. i love that they arent really in a "genre". their shit changed so much from where they started but they could play anything from any period and it worked. which in my opinion is what makes them so great

See I remember how many people were bummed when My War came out. I gave it a chance and it seemed OK but never compared to the power of the early stuff. The funny thing is everyone seemed to blame it on Rollins when it was all Greg. There is a lot of directions BF could have gone and truth be told it influence a great deal of the stuff I dislike even to this day. So it comes down to taste but I really wonder if we would have gotten all that stoner rock and grunge without post Damage Black Flag and the countless awful records SST put out.

joseph wrote:

DaVo wrote:

joseph wrote:i think wasted might be the worst black flag song and its a black flag song. circle jerks is a cover. covers are not punk rock/hordcore whatevers

Not a cover. Keith wrote the Lyrics and Greg wrote the music. It is one of those situations where Greg and Keith had a fight and both continued to play the song after that. I don't think Greg even created Keith with writing credits. I'll have to pull out the single and check.

it was written by black flag so anybody else that plays it is playing a cover. when ginn does it on his solo tours its a cover.

we have completely different conclusions. what garfield and mackaye brought back to dc was the intensity of the music/situation. i dont agree on the whole what started where/when deal. im not trying to argue teh same shit we always seem to nag about. OBVIOUSLY we have different opinions its fine.

Think about this, what Hardcore Records were out in 78 and 79 and what they were listening to when they formed these bands? Middle Class - Out of Vogue, DOA - Disco Sucks, Bad Brains(though Pay to Cum didn't come out until 1980), Black Flag - Nervous Breakdown, Fear - I Love Living in the City, Germs - GI, Dead Kennedys, Negative Trend - We Don't Play, We Riot, etc... Also they were heavily influenced by Dogtown and the Z-Boys and what Jay Adams was into. Which leads back to the LA Bands. Make no mistake Hardcore started in LA then spread to D.C. then Boston and NYC. Also the term was used in the early Hollywood scene to describe the difference between the Art types and the more extreme elements of the scene like the Germs, Middle Class, Rhino39, the Bags, etc...

JFA

if you're insinuating jfa is better than black flag, i'll actually fist fight you, anytime, any place.

BUT

if that's not the case, FUCK YEAH

BEACH BLANKET BONG OUT

again, check the link. http://www.allmusic.com/album/nervous-breakdown-r1959

wasted was written by ginn & morris, not black flag. if you cowrite a song it's not a cover when you perform it with one of your other projects.

DaVo wrote:The funny thing is everyone seemed to blame it on Rollins when it was all Greg.

THANK YOU!

zach walther wrote:if you're insinuating jfa is better than black flag, i'll actually fist fight you, anytime, any place.

BUT

if that's not the case, FUCK YEAH

BEACH BLANKET BONG OUT

I just said JFA because they should have been on Davo's list of bands from a few posts back. Especially in reference to the early Skate Rock/So Cal Hardcore scene.

Can we just agree that, in general, Black Flag fucking rules?

elliot wrote:Can we just agree that, in general, Black Flag fucking rules?

i think we already have.

DaVo wrote:Think about this, what Hardcore Records were out in 78 and 79 and what they were listening to when they formed these bands? Middle Class - Out of Vogue, DOA - Disco Sucks, Bad Brains(though Pay to Cum didn't come out until 1980), Black Flag - Nervous Breakdown, Fear - I Love Living in the City, Germs - GI, Dead Kennedys, Negative Trend - We Don't Play, We Riot, etc... Also they were heavily influenced by Dogtown and the Z-Boys and what Jay Adams was into. Which leads back to the LA Bands. Make no mistake Hardcore started in LA then spread to D.C. then Boston and NYC. Also the term was used in the early Hollywood scene to describe the difference between the Art types and the more extreme elements of the scene like the Germs, Middle Class, Rhino39, the Bags, etc...

how come hardcore bands have to be influenced by hardcore bands. i probably listen to more country, jazz, blues and afrobeat than punk rock but im still going to and playing shows and i still love it. and outta your history list black flag and bad brains are the only bands i like. think how many bands back then were playing and influencing each other that never recorded or maybe never made it past a practice? how much of it was started by angst ridden kids that didnt know anything but were just looking for a way to fight and kick back at whatever... if you think that list of bands is what started hardcore/punk rock/whatever ... theres plenty of older recorded stuff thats got intensity and angers etc

and linking black flag to doom/stoner is just weird. i think stoner comes more from nugents strangle hold than ginns wanna be greatful dead jamming stuff

that's valid.

but i think there wouldn't be fu manchu if there wasn't rollins era black flag.

Nick wrote:

zach walther wrote:if you're insinuating jfa is better than black flag, i'll actually fist fight you, anytime, any place.

BUT

if that's not the case, FUCK YEAH

BEACH BLANKET BONG OUT

I just said JFA because they should have been on Davo's list of bands from a few posts back. Especially in reference to the early Skate Rock/So Cal Hardcore scene.

JFA is from around the same time as most of the Boston and D.C bands. I think they formed in 81 or 82 and were from Phoenix, Arizona. I think the first Skate Punk band was Agression if you don't count Agent Orange.

joseph wrote:

DaVo wrote:Think about this, what Hardcore Records were out in 78 and 79 and what they were listening to when they formed these bands? Middle Class - Out of Vogue, DOA - Disco Sucks, Bad Brains(though Pay to Cum didn't come out until 1980), Black Flag - Nervous Breakdown, Fear - I Love Living in the City, Germs - GI, Dead Kennedys, Negative Trend - We Don't Play, We Riot, etc... Also they were heavily influenced by Dogtown and the Z-Boys and what Jay Adams was into. Which leads back to the LA Bands. Make no mistake Hardcore started in LA then spread to D.C. then Boston and NYC. Also the term was used in the early Hollywood scene to describe the difference between the Art types and the more extreme elements of the scene like the Germs, Middle Class, Rhino39, the Bags, etc...

how come hardcore bands have to be influenced by hardcore bands. i probably listen to more country, jazz, blues and afrobeat than punk rock but im still going to and playing shows and i still love it. and outta your history list black flag and bad brains are the only bands i like. think how many bands back then were playing and influencing each other that never recorded or maybe never made it past a practice? how much of it was started by angst ridden kids that didnt know anything but were just looking for a way to fight and kick back at whatever... if you think that list of bands is what started hardcore/punk rock/whatever ... theres plenty of older recorded stuff thats got intensity and angers etc

and linking black flag to doom/stoner is just weird. i think stoner comes more from nugents strangle hold than ginns wanna be greatful dead jamming stuff

This is an argument that could go on and on and yes, local bands do effect and influence each other. However, a majority of the Dischord bands have stated Black Flag and the Southern California bands as their influence, along with the Bad Brains. It was a blending to the two that brought about the whole thing. The Bad Brains with their PMA mixed with the aggression of Black Flag and California Hardcore brought about that whole first wave. Also take into account that BB has in the past listed the Dead Kennedys and the Dickies as influences. The Dickies maybe the reason they started to play their music faster and faster. You see at the start you really don't have anything but the records and the 2 or 3 bands that tour the area. Which would have been the Ramones, maybe the Dead Boys, The Dead Kennedys and the Damned. Most early bands in any city, including our fair 515, were one in a sea of a thousand cover bands in the late 70s and much of the 80s. If those Dischord Bands were only influence by local bands they would have all turned out sounding like the Bad Brains. Something else had to be added to create that clearly D.C. sound.

god shut up everyone

kurtis wrote:god shut up everyone

no shhhhhhhittt.
That shit be dead any how .

Is black flag playin at haunted basement house next week o r somethin ?

DaVo wrote:This is an argument that could go on and on and yes, local bands do effect and influence each other.
Something else had to be added to create that clearly D.C. sound.

thats what i said.

kurtis wrote:god shut up everyone

you shut up, satin

black flag started and always has been greg ginn's project. he writes the music and writes shitty lyrics if no one else contributed lyrics. i don't care who is credited in a liner note or whatever, ginn wrote all the music and it was HIS band (that's why so many people kept leaving)

ALL the black flag stuff is awesome. and nobody likes the later shit because all the "famous" people aren't in it anymore, just a bunch of random mexicans. greg ginn wrote everything, other people couldn't get into it because you can't slam dance to it. that's it. that's all. get over it.

for people who like the later black flag albums (post- Damaged) check out Greg Ginn's solo albums. they are pretty good, nothing super amazing, but great to listen to.

i dont like the later stuff because it sounds like a bunch of hippie crap.

also, to me, it seems like an in thing to say you like the later stuff.

creepykid wrote:black flag started and always has been greg ginn's project. he writes the music and writes shitty lyrics if no one else contributed lyrics. i don't care who is credited in a liner note or whatever, ginn wrote all the music and it was HIS band (that's why so many people kept leaving)

ALL the black flag stuff is awesome.

YES

noel_nothing wrote:i dont like the later stuff because it sounds like a bunch of hippie crap.

also, to me, it seems like an in thing to say you like the later stuff.

YOURE A HIPPY