515 Crew

[@nonymous]

A California appeals court ruling clamping down on homeschooling by parents without teaching credentials sent shock waves across the state this week, leaving an estimated 166,000 children as possible truants and their parents at risk of prosecution.

The homeschooling movement never saw the case coming.

"At first, there was a sense of, 'No way,' " said homeschool parent Loren Mavromati, a resident of Redondo Beach (Los Angeles County) who is active with a homeschool association. "Then there was a little bit of fear. I think it has moved now into indignation."

The ruling arose from a child welfare dispute between the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services and Philip and Mary Long of Lynwood, who have been homeschooling their eight children. Mary Long is their teacher, but holds no teaching credential.

The parents said they also enrolled their children in Sunland Christian School, a private religious academy in Sylmar (Los Angeles County), which considers the Long children part of its independent study program and visits the home about four times a year.

The Second District Court of Appeal ruled that California law requires parents to send their children to full-time public or private schools or have them taught by credentialed tutors at home.

Some homeschoolers are affiliated with private or charter schools, like the Longs, but others fly under the radar completely. Many homeschooling families avoid truancy laws by registering with the state as a private school and then enroll only their own children.

Yet the appeals court said state law has been clear since at least 1953, when another appellate court rejected a challenge by homeschooling parents to California's compulsory education statutes. Those statutes require children ages 6 to 18 to attend a full-time day school, either public or private, or to be instructed by a tutor who holds a state credential for the child's grade level.

"California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."

Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said. [more here]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... DVF0F1.DTL

[Varg]

Arnold's doing this country one hell of a disservice....

[TooManyHumyns]

though your statement is true, and i can directly relate because 3 of my cousins were raised with brutal Christian ethics backing their home education, it should be noted that not all homeschool parents have these intentions. Many parents have become involved with un-schooling which involves community efforts in raising and educating their children together in a positive learning environment. There is currently an uschooling project in the works for des moines, more information will be available as it becomes more relevant

for more information on non-christian backed homeschooling and unschooling please visit:

http://www.unschooling.com/
&
here is a link a local homeschooling message board:
http://www.iahomeeducators.org/

word

[El Rhino]

Uhmmm... How is requiring kids to receive a valid and reality-based education a disservice?

The home schooling movement creates fucked up christian footsoldiers who are inept in normal society. Good for California.

Wait, since when are California public schools offering a valid education?

I know it probably really tans your hide that someone might be getting an education based around a belief system that doesn't match up with yours, but is it really that bad? Most homeschooled kids I've met seemed to be a little better educated and more mature than their public school counterparts. Most of them were dorks, yes, but that's not a crime.

I don't know, it doesn't seem like a bad thing to keep your kids away from the school system's agenda (yes, they usually have one) and to allow your child to learn at a pace that isn't dictated by the kids who "can't read good" and the little cocksuckers who want to interrupt and cause trouble all the time. But hey, the homeschoolers keep churning out Republican after Republican, so something should be done, right?

[Thom]

It was my understanding that home schooled kids still had to go into a school and take tests and things of the like anyways. I didn't think homeschooling was synonymous with "free ride". Maybe I'm just a chump though.

[Hank Fist]

I've known a few home schooled kids. One was a major christian freakouter that went to my church. The kid knew freakin calculus in 8th grade, but totally socially inept, his dad used to get jailed weekly outside abortion clinics, and the mom was perpetually pregnant. Really. But i'm sure there are some more normals out there. public schools aren't that good. i mean, did anybody ever even study? I know I rarely did anything but required homework, and even then, five minutes before class: "hey, can i look at your homework", and then swiftly copy the answers down. and now look at me.

[El Rhino]

It was my understanding that home schooled kids still had to go into a school and take tests and things of the like anyways. I didn't think homeschooling was synonymous with "free ride". Maybe I'm just a chump though.

I think the school board has some sort of curriculum guidelines and tests they have to take to demonstrate some sort of mastery of said curriculum. It's not like they sit around and learn about Jesus and hatin' homosexuals all day or whatever.... at least not exclusively.

I know the Des Moines public schools allow homeschooled students to take part in some school activities and take classes at Central Campus/Academy.

I guess if they can read at an approrpriate level and speak something other than ebonics, they've got a step up on most of the students public schools turn out.

[inx515xhell]

I know it probably really tans your hide that someone might be getting an education based around a belief system that doesn't match up with yours, but is it really that bad?

75% of the children home schooled in the U.S. are taught by their parents who are Evangelical Christians. Now, this doesn't mean its like Kansas, where they teach intelligent design and evolution(crazy, right?). These idiots teach their kids the earth is only 6 thousand years old, dinosaur fossils were an act of god to test faith, and that creationism is the only way to answer any of life's questions.

[Bullet Tooth]

I know it probably really tans your hide that someone might be getting an education based around a belief system that doesn't match up with yours, but is it really that bad?

75% of the children home schooled in the U.S. are taught by their parents who are Evangelical Christians. Now, this doesn't mean its like Kansas, where they teach intelligent design and evolution(crazy, right?). These idiots teach their kids the earth is only 6 thousand years old, dinosaur fossils were an act of god to test faith, and that creationism is the only way to answer any of life's questions.

that really has no bearing on the rest of their education.

[inx515xhell]

I know it probably really tans your hide that someone might be getting an education based around a belief system that doesn't match up with yours, but is it really that bad?

75% of the children home schooled in the U.S. are taught by their parents who are Evangelical Christians. Now, this doesn't mean its like Kansas, where they teach intelligent design and evolution(crazy, right?). These idiots teach their kids the earth is only 6 thousand years old, dinosaur fossils were an act of god to test faith, and that creationism is the only way to answer any of life's questions.

that really has no bearing on the rest of their education.

dude, wait...what?
sarcasm?
there is a difference in being taught that you are a miracle of life because of the intricate complexities of science rather than "god made you and has a plan for you".

[Bullet Tooth]

youre right. thats why i said "the rest of their education". its not like a miracle of god explains calculus to them. still not a legit reason to stop having them be home schooled.

[inx515xhell]

it doesn't say that was the reason it was outlawed. i think it was a legal technicality.
i just consider it one of the benifits.

[TooManyHumyns]

this came to light after a homeschooling parent continuously beat her kid and would not allow for them to attend public school because teachers and children would see the marks...fuckt

[El Rhino]

75% of the children home schooled in the U.S. are taught by their parents who are Evangelical Christians. Now, this doesn't mean its like Kansas, where they teach intelligent design and evolution(crazy, right?). These idiots teach their kids the earth is only 6 thousand years old, dinosaur fossils were an act of god to test faith, and that creationism is the only way to answer any of life's questions.

As previously stated, there are some guidelines as far as what the bare essentials a home schooled student must learn. If evolution is part of that state/city's cirriculum (I'm not sure exactly who makes the guidelines), then obviously the kids are going to have to learn it and pass a test demonstrating some sort of learning has occured on the subject. Once they hit the basics, who really cares what they teach? They teach a lot of garbage in public schools as well.

I know people like to start throwing around phrases like "seperation of church and state" during these kinds of discussions (no one has yet, I know) but keep in mind that freedom of religion goes both ways. Freedom from and freedom of. If a parent wants to educate their child based upon a religious doctrine, it is their right (except in California). There are worse things in the world.... like going through twelve years of public schools and reading at an eight grade level, being unable to discuss key historical moments in world/US history, being unable to effectively convey thoughts to words, speaking ebonics and having a grasp of math and science far below that of most developed nations' students.

[Bullet Tooth]

it doesn't say that was the reason it was outlawed. i think it was a legal technicality.
i just consider it one of the benifits.

i dont see how churning out dumber kids is a benefit.

[inx515xhell]

I know people like to start throwing around phrases like "seperation of church and state" during these kinds of discussions (no one has yet, I know) but keep in mind that freedom of religion goes both ways. Freedom from and freedom of.

i agree with that. at the same time, these are the people who are rising to power in politics. george bush has them to thank for his "success". it is only a matter of time before the whole "take prayer out of church, let sex/guns/violence/slayer in" mentality is reinstated.

[inx515xhell]

it doesn't say that was the reason it was outlawed. i think it was a legal technicality.
i just consider it one of the benifits.

i dont see how churning out dumber kids is a benefit.

i'm going to go ahead and assume that 99.9% of the people on this board (including you) are products of the public school system. now there are OBVIOUSLY a few exceptions (herb), but i think we all turned out ok. outlawing homeschooling (while i don't agree with it) isn't going to increase the number of "dumb" kids.

[Bullet Tooth]

it doesn't say that was the reason it was outlawed. i think it was a legal technicality.
i just consider it one of the benifits.

i dont see how churning out dumber kids is a benefit.

i'm going to go ahead and assume that 99.9% of the people on this board (including you) are products of the public school system. now there are OBVIOUSLY a few exceptions (herb), but i think we all turned out ok. outlawing homeschooling (while i don't agree with it) isn't going to increase the number of "dumb" kids.

actually i was homeschooled until 8th grade and i feel i went backwards once i hit public school.

i hate to break it to you, herb is the rule not the exception nowadays.

[inx515xhell]

nonetheless, schools don't churn out dumb kids. dumb parents do.

[Bullet Tooth]

nonetheless, schools don't churn out dumb kids. dumb parents do.

its a joint effort.

[El Rhino]

LOL. The entire basis for this conversation is so uninformed and naive that it's ridiculous.

It's your conservative overlords who have fucked American public education, and then you assholes have the nerve to bitch about it? Suck my dick, for real. I don't want to hear another self-aggrandizing word from you people on this topic, because you don't know shit, and that is obvious.

You've got to be fucking kidding me. Seriously, Nick, you're not that fucking smart.

[TooManyHumyns]

now remember, you can only site 2 internet sources...

[El Rhino]

So, what is it, then? Who is to blame? All dumb niggers, right?

Please grow up.

Them and the liberals.


The whole "meat" of your post is basically "Republicans are bad and have fucked up the public school system" and pretty vague. I didn't know the charter school thing had such a big impact and that the Republicans have put public schools "on the free market". I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

Just to humor you on a few things here...


- What's your "frame of reference" on the subject if the rest of us are so uneducated on the subject? What makes you the authority on this subject? Let's hear it.

- I've got a few things to do today, so I shouldn't be too close to the computer, but if you really want to mentally masturbate over how Republicans have ruined the public school system, be my guest. Maybe myself or someone else will even respond to whatever you have to say.

[El Rhino]

I didn't mean for the "I have better shit to do" to be condescending or a cop-out, I've really got some things going on around here right now that should keep me away from the computer right now. I'll take a little break now though.

Discussing the right to homeschool is somewhat interesting to me. Discussing privatization of schools interests me a lot less, I'm sorry, but I'll try.


First off, you say that Republicans have fucked up the school system. Ok. You also say that you're against home schooling. So if the system is so fucked up, why not offer someone an alternative? Waiting for change doesn't seem like a good alternative when you think of how long it takes for something to happen, the likelihood of change happening and the limited time frame you've got for a k-12 education.

How widespread is the privatization of schools? As far as I know, not very. I believe it's something that happens in a few areas and for the most part Republicans just talk about doing it. If they haven't really done it yet, how could they have fucked it up by simply suggesting the privatization for schools? BTW, I'm not even for vouchers. It does sound good in theory, but when they did it in Milwaukee they ended up with a lot of sub-par schools (even by inner city Milwaukee standards, which are pretty low) trying to cash in on the vouchers so it kind of backfired.

I read the article about the schools in New Orleans. If the NOLA school board approved of the private schools, I can assure you they are Democrats. Places with a 70% black population do not vote for Republicans. I imagine the school system was completely fucked pre-Katrina through their own doing anyways. Nothing from that article really jumped out at me as being overly convincing.

You mention raising taxes to fund education. While I wouldn't have a problem with it (most people wouldn't either), what are we getting for our money? A lot of us believe that money is not the only answer. Take DC for example, they spend the most money per student and if they were a state, they would only come in ahead of Mississippi as far as the final product they're putting out. Hell, DC spends almost twice as much as we do in Iowa. What causes this? They spend about $11,000 in Detroit per pupil compared to our $7,000. Sounds like we need to go back to the drawing board and figure something else out because throwing money at the problem isn't working. Until you start making people responsible, computers, fancy science labs and planetariums aren't going to do shit.

Personally, I'd like to see us adopt something more along the lines of the German Realschule concept. At a certain point (like high school), the brighter kids are put on a path towards college- studying the fine arts, philosophy, math, science, etc. The ones who aren't so bright get an education based around learning a trade, seeking employment and various "lifeskills". Everyone gets a similar education leading up to high school. I think something like this would work out better for everyone. A kid that isn't too bright will be better served learning how to do carpentry than learning the ins and outs of the structure of atoms. A kid who is bright would be better served learning at a pace more on par with other bright kids.

[El Rhino]

Whether or not you agree with me is fine, I'm just not into "suck my dick", "you guys are idiots", etc, etc. I'm not going to kick your ass or call you a faggot or anything, I just don't appreciate it.

Anyways, I don't think most people would have a problem with "levelling the playing field" or borderline socialism with education if the results were there, but the problem is how do you really make it equal? To me it just sounds like throwing money at a problem, hoping it goes away and then patting yourself on the back for doing the right thing. I know I wouldn't have a problem with re-distributing wealth if we were seeing results out of it.

You mention a growing impoverished, uneducated underclass. I think the only way to counter this is through the realschule concept I was talking about. I think we'd do better as a society to steer the kids who aren't going to be able to do well with math/science, literature, fine arts, philosophy and so-on towards careers. I guess they can spend 12 years in school barely grasping, if at all, the concepts being taught and get nothing out of it or we could be teaching them skills (and promoting the culture) that will land them at the Post Office, driving a bus, driving a truck, working in a factory, being a carpenter, roofing, painting, joining the military or so-on. None of these are bad career paths and could most likely lead to a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

The way things are now, we spend twelve years trying to teach them about things they should've grasped a while ago, give them a diploma and a "brotha's gonna make it speech" and watch them go off to become telemarketers or sell cell phones in the mall.


On the other hand, we could go to a high school in inner city Detroit where the average IQ hovers around 85, buy them all laptops, hire a voodoo priest to have Carl Sagan come back to life and give lectures, have a house Shakespeare troupe and send all the kids off to Space Camp and see how that works out.

[Thom]

I'm not going to kick your ass or call you a faggot or anything

How Progressive!

[Wheatstache]

I know people like to start throwing around phrases like "seperation of church and state" during these kinds of discussions (no one has yet, I know) but keep in mind that freedom of religion goes both ways. Freedom from and freedom of.

i agree with that. at the same time, these are the people who are rising to power in politics. george bush has them to thank for his "success". it is only a matter of time before the whole "take prayer out of church, let sex/guns/violence/slayer in" mentality is reinstated.

There's actually a pretty big shift taking place with in the Church concerning this. These folks might be getting louder, but it's because they're on the outs.
As far as politics goes, we'll see. I wish the Church would stay the hell out of politics as an organization though.

[Wheatstache]

Uhmmm... How is requiring kids to receive a valid and reality-based education a disservice?

The home schooling movement creates fucked up christian footsoldiers who are inept in normal society. Good for California.

How is this that different than calling people dumb niggers?

[El Rhino]

The home schooling movement creates fucked up christian footsoldiers who are inept in normal society. Good for California.

How is this that different than calling people dumb niggers?[/quote]

Because it's socially acceptable and encouraged to ridicule those people.

[Hank Fist]

so..
Homeschool is for the extreme right wing facist jesus lickers.

Public Schools are commie.